An Intruder Breaks Into Your Home -- What Are You Gonna Do?

Hey Satan,

I understand that you have been having a rough time of it in the Pit lately, but you are starting to sound like a hydra:)
I don’t care if you want a gun or not, I don’t care if you think we have a right to guns. The bottom line is that, here on the Straight Dope, we don’t vote on the facts. You have yet to come anywhere close to showing that a gun in the house is more likely to be used against you than to protect you.

Faced with the evidence, you have stamped your feet, thrown a temper and are currently turning blue over in the corner while you hold your breath.

Fortunately, this does not make your assertion a fact.

So far all I have seen is Kellerman and HCI. If you have seen facts from unbiased sources, then please post the links. The Kellerman study has been debunked so many times it is bound to end up on Snopes soon.

So far the majority of the assumptions have come from you, and if I had to hazard a guess, I would say that creationists are easy because they’re wrong.

Personally, I think I have made it clear that I don’t care if someone wants to remain unarmed. I am usually satisfied if someone will just stop citing BS stats and recognize the facts.

Whether you are pulling facts from thin air, or insisting that a study is valid after your fellow Dopers have poked it full of holes, you are on the wrong side on this issue.

**
[/QUOTE]
I’m with you, buddy. If I’m home alone, take what you will and leave. If my family is home, I will kill, kill, kill. No guns in the house, but plenty of heavy blunt objects. By the time the police arrive there’ll be nothing left of the intruder but pulp.**
[/QUOTE]

Nice ring to that phrase. Mind if I use that for my presidential campaign?

Country Squire: I’m sorry for implying that you may have had an ulterior motive for opening this thread; many, many, manny gun-control threads have been started here by just such innocuous questions.

And usually, the original poster had every intention of turning it into an anti-gun/let’s-bash-gun-owners thread as soon as possible. :mad:

But you have claimed that that was not your intent, and so far, you haven’t fullfilled our worst fears.

My apologies.

I said:

Emphasis mine.

Anthracite replied:

Uhm…yeah. What I said. Short-barreled shotguns (approx. 18") don’t disperse much at short range. Anything with a barrel length of less than 18" (or 26" overall, IIRC) is illegal, and your business, not mine.

And spray-and-pray with semi-autos may be all fun-and-good on a shooting range, (I do it, often and regular!) but is hardly recommended for self-defense.

And you say that you have fired your Mini-14 indoors, without ear protection? And .44 Magnum, too?

And you can still hear just fine? :eek:

Satan: (and I’m NOT being sarcastic, or trying to pick on you)

As a gun-owner, gun advocate and NRA member, if you aren’t comfortable with firearms, then I don’t want you to own one.

Too many accidents are caused by people who feel the need (but not necessarily the desire) to own a gun, and don’t take the time or the responsibility to inform themselves of the basics of gun safety or the correct, safe operation of their firearm. I hate these idiots. They give me and the rest of the gun-owning community a bad name.

So I agree with you, in principle, that some form of mandaqtory training and licensing is not a bad idea. In theory. But in application, I and the majority of the gun-owning community don’t trust that these measures will be the end of crime committed with firearms (as we feel that only law-abiding gun-owners will partake of such measures), and thus the gun control=crime control will be back, very soon, with their new sets of restrictions and regulatory schemes for “making us safe from gun crime”.

No one respects your right NOT to own a gun more than I and, I suspect, most of the gun-owning community on this message board; especially as you are kind enough to reciprocate the courtesy (I said that I’m not being sarcastic).

And an apt analogy related to me to explain the flaw in Dr. Kellerman’s methodology:

The AMA and the New England Journal of Medicine, in the opinion of quite a few gun-advocacy organizations, have recently begun to cultivate a distinct anti-gun bias.

Do you really want to do some independant research? Go to the Center for Disease Control’s own statistical database at the National Center for Health Statistics. Pay particualr attention to the leading causes of accidental deaths for children, ages 0-14.

Or don’t, if you’ve already made up your mind and don’t want to be dissuaded.

You’re very flattering, Squire. Use it however you like.

Back in the olden days,when I was a single guy, bartending ,living in an upstairs
apartment with one door leading outside,I used to have this reaccuring dream. I was
sleeping and there was someone standing next to the bed looking down at me. As much
as I tried I could not wake myself to see who it was.
One night I heard the door open and close.This time I was awake. I laid there a
while and nothing happened. After a while I jumped up ran over to the doorway leading
to the steps and flipped on the light.
Standing there at the bottom of the steps was my neighbor. She said she lost her
keys.
I grabbed a flashlite and we went key hunting. I found them. She had set them on
a ledge next to the door. I tried them in the lock and the door opened. It wasn’t locked.
She was not an unattractive woman but not anyone I would have been attracted to
normally.
I told her good night and walked home.
She followed me.
The rest of the story is X rated.
Don’t know if her being there that night was an isolated incident but the dreams
stopped.
Be very very careful.You never know what awaits you.

My plan calls for me to plug the bad guy, call the cops, and tell 'em to take their time. Unfortunately, what is likely to happen first is that I’ll trip over the dog, and my cussing will scare the bad guy out of the house.

  1. Grab 357 S&W combat magnum off of night stand

  2. get phone call cops and check to be sure gun is loaded (not necessarily in that order)

  3. Wait to see who get’s to my room first. If it’s the cops surrender weapon and have them check the house. (it’s what I pay them for [or at least my taxes do])If it’s the intruder announce that I have a weapon and put a round in to the floor so he know I am capable and willing to use it. Then if he persists he get’s five rounds of 185 sjhp for his folly.

The first question you shoud ask in the case of home defence is how far are YOU as a person willing to go. If there is the slightest doubt about your ability to employ a weapon (of any type) in a deadly maner then you are better of not having one at all. I have no such reservations, as such woe be unto the who comes through my door uninvited.

Same thing I do every night. I’d say, “Girls, there’s no monsters in your room. Get back to bed.”

Seriously, though, if I thought an intruder had entered my house, I’d take the glass of ice water that I take up to my room every night and hurl it towards the window which is 2 feet from my bed.

Nothing wakes up the neighbors more effectively than the sound of breaking glass at 3am. And intruders HATE to be conspicuous.

Here are some other notes to chew on.

From the talk.politics.guns pro-gun FAQ (public domain)

Note: Reference numbers in the text, and the complete text itself, may be found here.

“Guns aren’t effective defensive weapons, and are ‘43 to 1 times’ more likely to kill their owners or family members than they are useful to defend against criminal attack.”
In summary: The often-cited “studies that show” having a gun in the home is a far greater risk to you and your loved ones than to criminals, are a favorite topic of discussion here on t.p.g., in part to demonstrate the extraordinary statistical contortions that “gun control” advocates will go to in an attempt to support their flawed premises. The idea that guns (and handguns in particular) are ineffective as defensive weapons shows a distinct lack of imagination, especially since police carry them for that purpose.

The 1986 Kellerman study, the source of the famous “43 to 1” ratio, is deceptive in several ways. The basis for comparison in this study is the ratio of “firearm-related deaths” of household members vs. deaths of criminals killed in the home (justifiable homicides). The “firearm-related deaths” in the study include suicides and accidents,
neither of which are randomly distributed throughout the population, as the 43 to 1 “risk ratio” would imply. Both suicides and accidents are more likely to occur in specific categories of people than they are in the general population. Of the 398 “firearm-related deaths” included in the study, the vast majority (333, or, 84%) were suicides.

The number of fatal firearms accidents in the study was 12 (or 3% of the studied deaths). Since sometimes a “gun cleaning accident” is actually a suicide reported under a name less likely to deny payment from a life insurance company, there may in fact have been even fewer accidents than are apparent from the reporting. When only the criminal homicides are considered, rather than including suicides and accidents, the “43 to 1” ratio disappears, and the ratio is far less dramatic, more like “4.5 to 1”. There were 41 criminal homicides reported in the Kellerman study, and 9 instances of justifiable or self-defense homicide. People who are violent, unbalanced, or involved
in a life of crime are much more likely to use their home gun unwisely, and their chances of using it to harm another (or themselves) are higher than would be expected for the majority of the population.

As criminologists know and can demonstrate, the fallacy underlying the work of researchers who treat “gun violence” as an “epidemic” or as an issue of “public health” is the idea that people are all at equal risk for becoming a perpetrator of crime, and lack only a deadly weapon. If a person is stable, and not suicidal, and not prone to extreme violence, their chances of becoming involved in “firearm-related death” will be far lower than the Kellerman “43 to 1 risk ratio” would suggest.

Persons with these risk factors are not only more likely to abuse guns to harm themselves or others, but they probably can’t be trusted with knives, either. Aside from such obvious risk factors, the likelihood of being injured accidentally can be decreased further by training in safe gun handling, much as firearms accidents have declined in the U.S. population in recent years due to such safety education, despite an increase in the number of guns available. (See 1.3) The Kellerman study, based on data collected in King County, WA from 1978 to 1983, is skewed towards violence associated with an urban setting, and makes little mention of the thousands of gun-owning households where no “firearm-related deaths” occurred at all. If gun ownership was the crucial factor in an “epidemiology of violence,” how to explain the fact that almost all gunowners’ households weren’t affected?

Assessing the effectiveness of gun use against criminals as “number of criminals killed” (as the Kellerman study does) is an extraordinary presumption as well, since law enforcement officers aren’t judged by such a restrictive standard. Why isn’t “criminals deterred” or “crimes completed” or even “criminals wounded or apprehended” a
legitimate means of measuring defensive effectiveness? Certainly in some proportion of gun-owning households where no “firearm-related deaths” occurred, it was because a firearm was used to deter, wound, or otherwise thwart an attacker.

In point of fact, the reason these “studies” are structured as badly as they are, and are published in medical (rather than criminological) journals, is that the numbers don’t work out in favor of the “gun control” viewpoint if considered in these other ways (see also 3.0.b). There’s no more reason to judge the ability and effectiveness of armed
citizens at fighting crime by the numbers of criminals they kill than it is to do so for the police. Surprisingly, however, the numbers are quite similar (see 3.8). Still, it seems absurd for the anti-gun side to imply that gun owners_ought_to kill as many or more criminals than the number of people that criminals murder (which is the only way for the law-abiding to make a good showing in Kellerman’s “kill ratio”)!

Kellerman implies that a general “cost-benefit” ratio can be developed which can be used to weigh the harm committed with guns against the right of the individual to have a gun for self-defense, and if it happens that more people are being harmed with guns than there are instances of self-defense, we can simply allow those few people whose lives would be saved by having a gun to become victims too.

According to U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics data, having a gun and being able to use it in a defensive situation is the most effective means of avoiding injury (moreso even than offering no resistance) and thwarting completion of a robbery or assault. In general, resisting violent crime is far more likely to help than to hurt, and this is
especially true if your attacker attempts to take you hostage, such as sometimes happens in a carjacking situation. Most often in with-gun defenses, criminals can be frightened away or deterred without a shot being fired. Estimates of these types of defensive uses of firearms are wide ranging, from a low of 65,000 to 82,000 annual defensive gun uses (DGUs) reported to the U.S. Department of Justice’s National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), to a high end of some 2.1-2.5 million annual DGUs (see 1.1.b), but they seem to occur at least as often (if not far more often) each year as misuses of firearms by violent criminals. Since such defensive uses are rarely reported to the police (in some cases because firearms possession in the locality is illegal), it is difficult to quantify precisely the number of instances in which defensive use of firearms has saved lives.

A variety of factors complicate the measurement of DGU, including the completeness and accuracy of self-reporting by witnesses, the nature and sequence of the questions asked (including the definition of what constitutes a DGU), the willingness of the witness to respond _at all_to questions about such incidents, and the difficulty in distinguishing between self-defense and assault based on a witness’ own report. There is evidence to suggest that a substantial number of homicide victims have at other times been perpetrators, and Kleck suggests that criminals should comprise “a disproportionate share of both DGU and gun crime victimizations.” Whether criminals are any more or less willing to report DGU in surveys than non-criminals is another factor to be considered when estimating the frequency of lawful gun use in self-defense.

Even if the number of crimes deterred by lawful armed citizens annually is no greater than the number of violent crimes committed with guns each year, in the absence of these self-protective acts, the incidence of violent crime could be far higher than it is at present, and injuries to innocent victims could also increase.

The annual use of firearms for other lawful purposes, unrelated to self-defense, dwarfs both defensive and criminal uses combined.

See_Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America,_by Gary Kleck, Aldine de Gruyter, ISBN 0-202-30419-1 (1991) [Dr. Kleck’s book is a valuable resource for all participants in the “gun control” debate. _Point Blank_received the American Society for Criminology’s highest honor, the Hindelang Award, at the ASC’s 1993 annual meeting, for the most important contribution to the criminology literature in the preceding three years.]

also_Criminal Victimization in the United States,1992
A National Crime Victimization Survey Report,
_Bureau of Justice Statistics,
Office of Justice Programs, U.S. Dept. of Justice SuDoc# J 29.9/2:992 (1992)

Kellerman, Arthur L. and Reay, Donald T., “Protection or
Peril? An Analysis of Firearm-Related Deaths in the Home”
New England J. Medicine, v.314, n.24, pp.1557-1560 (1986)

Kleck, Gary and Gertz, Marc, “Armed Resistance to Crime: The
Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun,” J. of
Criminal Law and Criminology, v.86, n.1, pp.150-187 (1995)

I know, I just wanted to emphasize this point more. A great many people have this idea that one can close their eyes and hit someone with a shotgun. Handling a shotgun properly takes great accuracy, just as with as any other weapon. I just wanted to emphasize this point.

You are of course correct, but note my defensive position: 12 feet from the door, behind a headboard. At 12 feet a few of those 29 rounds are going to hit.

And then, of course, I have 2 more loaded 30-round mags under the bed… :smiley:

I don’t recomend it, of course, but yes. I wanted to see what the effect would be on my hearing in such a situation. The Mini…it’s loud, but the .44 Magnum causes intense, striking pain that lasts for a day or so. Very bad.

[minor hijack]

actually within 30-40 feet there will be little if any appreciable spread from a shotgun (if I recall correctly a full choke shotgun is supposed to put 90% of its load into a 30" circle at 50 yards or something like that) home encounters would more likely be at less than 50 feet.
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As far as stopping power, oh yeah shotgun has it. The total force delivered by a shotgun at close range makes any handgun round look like a joke.

I personally prefer handguns because they are easier to maneuver and aim in close quarters. Well that and I used to be a competition handgun shooter so I am more comfortable with them even though I have done a little skeet and trap and like it.

Distinctive sound? If I setup my shotgun to be part of my primary home defense plan there would be no sound other than maybe the the >click< of the safety coming off safe. It would already be loaded with a round chambered.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by drachillix *
**

Yeah, but in a dark room there aren’t many things that can clean out the colon more efficiently than the sound of a shotgun being racked :slight_smile:

Anthracite: yeah, 12 feet with a Mini-14 is a pretty safe bet, as long as you aren’t shaking like a leaf from an adrenaline-dump in your system.

Even if you don’t hit the intruder, though, I imagine that the hail of bullets tearing through the door/wall would effectively scare the bad guy away.

Just have a good carpet cleaner/deodorizer handy, 'cause the errant intruder will most probably fill his drawers and empty his bladder on his way out of your house!

My only hangup with the Mini-'s (the -30 suffers from the same problem) is the little notch on the inside-front of the magazine receiver; can sometimes make it a bitch to get a fesh magazine in, especially if you’re in a hurry or shaking.

Nice post on the Kellerman study, too. I did soemthing similar here on GD a while back, showing how even a lay-person, with no statistical training and using basic math, could refute that study.

For those truly interested in using a shotgun for home defense, there’s a “Derringer”-stlye handgun that is a .410/.45 Over-and-Under arrangement that my Dad uses for home defense. Compct enough for easy use, powerful enough to put down any bad guy. If there are “guys”, though, you might be in trouble, though I have no reliable info on how many “hot burglaries” have multiple intruders.

The “America has more crime/why aren’t we more like England/Australia/Japan” argument has recently taken a beating; see the article here.

True, there is a certain procedure for getting it in quickly properly. It is not nearly as foolproof as when I pop a magazine in my AR-15. For the Mini, you have to really angle the magazine so the bottom front is forward and elevated, snap it in hard, and rotate firmly to lock it in. I also was blessed with finding a great deal on true stainless steel 30-round mags that seem to fit very well (as opposed to the plastic Ram-Line magazines).

I wish they made a 7.62 NATO version, rather than the Mini-30 7.62x39 Russian one.

Some years back, my then-neighbor heard noises downstairs at around 6AM. For some reason, she figured that the landlord had sent somebody around for repairs.

When she reached the window that was the source of the noise, she spotted a man who had worked the ground floor window open and was busy removing jars from the window sill. He saw her. He smiled and fled. No firearms were involved.

What if she held a gun? I speculate that the story might have ended the same way sans smile. And that furthermore, she might have attributed the robber’s flight to her handgun.

While putting a clip into the Browning and having the other half dial what passes for law enforcement in our area, I would let the two Cavalier King Charles spaniels out into the hall.

In all likelihood, they would love-bomb the intruder(s), who would sit down to play with them and forget about why they entered the house in the first place…until the deputies showed up.

drachillix wrote:

A “full choke” is the most constricting kind of shotgun choke they make. It’s designed for long-range bird hunting and skeet shooting. Shotguns designed for personal defense have a “cylinder” choke, meaning the end of the barrel doesn’t constrict at all. The shot pattern is considerably wider with a cylinder choke shotgun than it is with a full-choke shotgun.

However, as Anthracite and ExTank pointed out, even a cylider choke 12-gauge won’t have a pattern that spreads out fast enough to catch anything standing near you, especially if you fire a shot load made of big enough pellets to drop your would-be assailant. My Mossberg 500 12-gauge has a 20" barrel with a cylinder choke. If I am firing a high-power number 7 shot load through it, it will make a circle about 3 feet in diameter on a target 7 yards (21 feet) away. If I am firing a high-power number 00 buckshot load through it, on the other hand, it will make a circle about 8 inches in diameter on the same target 7 yards away. And while I am more likely to “catch” my target in the shot pattern if I fire #7 shot, I am not likely to put him down with anything smaller than #00 buckshot. C’est la guerre.

People are not paying attention. Especially Anthracite who felt compelled to reprint a detailed rebuttal to a study which I myself said in that very post that the actual numbers have been rebutted. A such, the “43 times” number is NOT relevant at all. My exact words were that I didn’t think it right to “throw the baby out with the bathwater.”

What even the people who debunk it have not disproved is:

A gun in the house will most likely never be used except for maybe target practice and maintenance.

This ONLY says the guns are not fired at all more often than not save for target practice. Is someone going to argue this?

Now, the guns that ARE fired, a sizable number of them - I am not saying “43 times as often” and I am not saying even a vast majority, I am only saying a sizable number of them - are not shot with the intended purpose of protection.

We hear about them all the time. Frankly, I hear a hell of a lot more about accidental shootings and murders with legally owned and registered unstolen weapons than I do about how criminals were shot while looting the home of Mr. Smith and Mrs. Wesson.

A statistically significant number of the times a gun is shot will not be against an intruder.

Even if you strip away every ambiguous statistical nuance of that study or any other one, the above is a known fact. Something that anyone who has a gun in the house would be stupid to not know this.

Of course, someone with a gun in the house can hedge their bets by being aware of gun safety and taking the usual precautions if there are kids in the house.

But even knowing this, I say the potential doesn’t have to be “43 times more likely” for me to personally feel it’s a bad idea.

A lot of people smoke. I used to, in fact. I also think it’s a bad idea.

As I said (repeatedly), I have looked at the studies, and the studies done by the likes of the NRA. I read the papers, watch the news, and I am not ignorant of this issue.

I just see that there is a risk of a gun in the house being used for ways other than intended (feel free to scream and argue about how MUCH of a risk, or even whether it’s an odds-on chance or less, if that makes you feel better), and those ways tend to be QUITE BAD to the owner and/or his or her family usually.

As such, I feel the risk is too great for me to chance it.

No study, no matter how biased it might be, can take away that a gun in the house = a risk. This risk in most cases is far worse than the odds on what it is there for in the first place actually happening. And the risk to me and my family TO ME far outweights the potential benefits.

Feel free to think otherwise. I don’t care and I never said I did.

But for someone to say there is “no risk,” I don’t know what you’re looking at… Nobody said that, but from the audacity in the arguments, you MUST think this way.

If instead you say that the risk is acceptable to you, fine.

It’s not TO ME.

Well for crying out loud, if Mr. Smith is having an affair with Mrs. Wesson, they can expect an armed intruder. Most likely Mr. Wesson or someone he hired to do his dirty work. These are the type of people who NEED to have a gun in their home.

I can’t believe all you people have firearms within such easy reach of your beds. I had no idea it was so common.

-L

Satan
Nobody here has said that there is no risk.

The fact that people see a need for self protection and the handgun is the way that they have chosen to accomplish this says at least that they are adult enough to recognize their responsibility to themselves and their family.

The risk is in not being prepared to use it. That includes training.

Training includes letting every member of the household know that the gun is not a toy.

Once that is accomplished the risk becomes less.

Someone mentioned no experience with guns. Obviously they should not use one for protection because they are more of a risk than the risk they percieve.

Every household is different. If someone in the home has a problem with reality then there should not be a gun in that home.

Quote

What even the people who debunk it have not disproved is:

A gun in the house will most likely never be used except for maybe target practice and maintenance.

This ONLY says the guns are not fired at all more often than not save for target practice. Is someone going to argue this?
End Quote

Whats to argue???

Quote
A statistically significant number of the times a gun is shot will not be against an intruder.

Even if you strip away every ambiguous statistical nuance of that study or any other one, the above is a known fact. Something that anyone who has a gun in the house would be stupid to not know this.
End Quote

Damn we all hope not to use them.Whats to argue???