In regards to Satan’s last post, I agree with it all. Without studies, I can’t give numbers but there is one part which is grey, and that is the part about most guns not being used for their intended purpose. I’m willing to wager that the majority of people who have a gun do not have them for home protection. They, like myself, have them for other purposes, and are used quite often for those purposes, and home protection just happens to be a by-product of having them in the home. To say that more guns are involved in “accidentals” than actually shooting bad guys in your home could very well be correct. However, you don’t have to shoot the gun for it to be a deterrent or protection. Just as an example, many muggers don’t actually USE a weapon, but when they display one, they generally get what they want. My wife will be the first one to kick a guy in the balls and run away, but if they are holding a gun on her, she’s giving them her purse. Same philosophy. A gun doesn’t have to actually be fired to be used in protection. However, when people go buy a gun for the sole purpose of home protection, and never use it, never practice with it, and in most cases, are generally scared shitless of it in the first place, that is an accident waiting to happen, and is usually the case in “accidentals”.
… Not trying to take guns away. He can live where he wants with or without a weapon. I think that is cool and I think most here do also. he does not live on Kodiak Island, he does not live out here by us in the rural settings as manny gun owners do. At least I don’t think he does. :: shrug ::
Now to the point I want to bring up that I feel keeps getting glossed over in all these debates. Living out away from towns, the speed of police response is quite different than in town, much less “the city.”
TIC = Tongue In Cheek.
[TIC] —> The numbers of dogs and cats dumped in the ‘country’ by the gun less schmooze from the city is unbelievably appalling. [/TIC] Not to worry about roving packs of feral dogs attacking children, No, me, I, yeah, # uno, – 6’4" 260#'s male, wild looking dude will be actually stalked by dog packs within 100 yards of the house. Burglars laugh at breaking glass sounds, even warning shot noise, nobody to hear them. No local lost drunks break in thinking they are at home. The dogs get poisoned first or put down by tranquilizer darts or ‘blow guns or cross bows’. They (bad guys)seldom work alone but the ones that do are good at it. They will try for when you are gone to work but ‘retired’ folk just have too much neat stuff and they want it bad. So, it happens with frightening regularity. Most time it gets nipped in the bud by alert home owners who are ready and willing to go to the wall real quick. It is amazing how manny broken cars seem to get started after you walk out on the porch with a cell phone and a gun in your hand and offer to dial the # for them. About 50% of the time hear abouts. The rest get the help they need. We are neighborly here in the country. 
Come take a survey out here. We’ll give you some surprising numbers.
In Australia and England, the government has put up signs that say, “No guns here.” in peoples front yards IMO. I always thought that those who were out to disarm society should but up a similar sign in their yard and quit trading on the number of guns in households in America to slow down the criminals. (Yeah, just a pipe dream, they don’t have to walk what they talk.) :: Does not apply to Satan. ::::
I can’t really add to what has been so eloquently said here but don’t forget that all the farms are not yet gone and manny retired people are moving back into rural settings. [TIC]I’m sure none of the anti gun crowd would do that, to :: shudder :: wild and to far from the ‘Protectors.’[/TIC]
YMMV
Satan:
[Moderator Hat ON]
Satan, kindly do not tell your fellow posters to shove anything in their ass whilst you are in this forum, unless you are offering helpful sex tips to the anally inclined. Thank you.
[Moderator Hat OFF]
I have had it.
I posted the t.p.g-p.g. FAQ entry because it was relevant to the topic at hand. Nowhere in any post in this thread have I mentioned you at all. Once again, it is not about you. I do, in fact, pay attention - even if I am a lowly GQ poster primarily.
You are looking for a fight with me, and you are not going to get one. Not because you can bully me like so many others since your return here (you cannot), but simply because it serves no purpose, and out of respect for Libby, who I not only like but admire very much for her compassion and intelligence.
It is obvious we will not have a meeting of the minds on any issue, until you calm down a bit. Thus, like yourself and Coldfire, our conversations are likely to be permanently at an end.
Satan…
True. Too true. We’ve got several guns in our house (a Beretta, a Glock, three revolvers - one of which is quite old and silver-plated, so we don’t use it - several rifles, and a shotgun). None have been used for self-defense. None have been accidently discharge in the 20+ years in which they’ve been in existence. All of them have been used for target shooting (we’re planning another trip this summer).
HOWEVER… to go along with your statement, they also serve as a precautionary measure. How many seatbelts and/or airbags are used? A scant few. Just because something will most likely never be used that doesn’t mean it’s useless.
Know why? 'Cuz it’s not exactly a “Breaking-News” kind of thing. Satan, Satan, Satan, I thought you’d know better than that… I mean, we’re STILL hearing about Columbine after all this time… does that mean school shootings are a common occurance? Quite the opposite.
Precisely. In fact, it’s a rare thing for a gun to be shot at an intruder. And to that, I say “GOOD!”
Yeah, there are a lot of people who act stupidly. Personally, I think we should offer tax breaks for people who take gun safety courses… that’d help stamp out Ignorance with regards to guns in the general population.
But think of my example… we’ve got about ten guns in the household, and there’ve been ten people (two parents, eight kids) living in this household. Not a single accidental discharge, ever. Not a single injury as a result of a gun, ever. Not a single death as a result of a gun, ever. Why? 'Cuz every single person in this family is comfortable and familiar with guns, and they have been so since the day they were born. I’ve always known what a gun does and how to act around it. I’ve never had any “curiosity” about a gun, since any mysteries about them were dispelled before I could speak in whole sentences. I’ve never thought a gun was a toy, because I was taught early-on the difference between a real gun and a toy gun.
It’s too bad you choose not to own a gun, Satan… you’ve always striked me as the kind of guy who’d enjoy taking some shots at clay pigeons. Ah, well, to each his own.
We only had one accidental discharge in my house growing up. Luckily my brother was aiming UP because I was standing on the other side of the bed. Buckshot makes a horrible mess of the ceiling. I can only imagine what it would have done to my body.
IMO, keeping a loaded gun in the house is akin to keeping a wolf as a pet. The threat it poses by being there outweighs any potential value.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PunditLisa *
**
I’ve never taken a position on this issue, but…
How can you make such a categorical statement? If you are talking about your ownership, fine. But many liberals believe, IIRC, that ALL guns should be registered and, ultimately, confiscated.
Why not ban ownership of all automobiles because a statistical handful of owners drive either negligently, recklessly, or simply drunk?
I don’t care for handguns, but in some cases, they seem a necessary, well, evil–though I suppose there isn’t anything inherently evil about a handgun. Many of our Capitol Hill policymakers, unfortunately, live in either gated communities or in upscale areas where violence is uncommon and their handgun-banning policies would have little probable impact on their immediate safety.
Is it possible that, were the government able to confiscate handguns–from the law abiding, of course–that crime would actually increase? Were I a thug, I would be emboldened to break & enter were I to know my intended victims had no effective protection. If a thug can get crack cocaine with no problem, getting a handgun will be equally easy. (And do you think the more zealous advocates would be satisfied with just the banning of handguns? Why not shotguns and rifles, too?)
i have two guns that i keep unloaded in a spare room, so they won’t come in handy in the case of a random middle of the night break in, although twice i loaded a magazine and kept a gun by the bed when i thought i’d pissed off the wrong person during the day. neither one showed up. someone in this thread said they keep a round in the chamber in their by-the-bed firearm and just depend on the safety. that doesn’t sound like a good idea to me unless you live in a neighborhood where residences are regularly broken into by armed intruders.
to the op: i keep my softball bat in my room, mainly because that’s where i dropped it when i first moved in and never relocated it. i would beat the intruder to death with it and sink him in the river. our city does river cleanups once a year and this would give them something interesting to find besides old tires. for the element of surprise, i’d slip out my bedroom window and wait outside my front door. i’d put some pillows down so whatever he drops wouldn’t break. he’d be walking out thinking ‘what a score! what are these pillows doing here?’ WHACK.
Pundit Lisa: I couldn’t just let this one go, as I honestly think that you are more intelligent than to spout something so asinine:
As to the second sentence, I’m not going to try to persuade you to do something you obviously aren’t comfortable with.
But the first sentence is incredible in its…its…words fail me!
A gun doesn’t get hungry; it can neither be tame or wild; it doesn’t get distemper, rabies, parvo, mange, etc. It can’t get up and walk about on its own, or get restless, bored, or chew on the furniture from boredom or anxiety.
It certainly can’t turn on its owner because it has a bad day.
It is a tool, that is either owned, stored, maintained and operated wisely, or not, depending upon the intelligence, wisdom or temperment of the person operating it.
Likening firearms to wild animals that have been brought into your home is akin to likening a car to a rampaging bull kept in your garage.
Ridiculous!
I’d like to add an “Amen!” to CatBiker’s entreaty to leave Satan alone; he has acknowledged our rights and agreed to leave us alone. I say take the small victory and not try to “convert” him. The larger debate is out in the real world, not just this message board.
I think that he’s smart enough to eventually see through the majority of anti-gun propoganda disguised as “research”, once he puts his analytic abilities to sifting through raw data (I say again, sift through the National Institute of Health Statistics data for yourselves) instead of being spoon-fed distorted reality.
I could tell y’all where to look at the NIHS’s website, but in the interest of nonpartisanship in this (non) debate, I’ll let you discover the truth for yourselves.
If you’re interested.
That would be me 
This is a speed vs safety concern. Anyone who has a reason to carry or use a weapon keeps them loaded. Reloading a magazine is probably one of the hardest “gun related” actions you could have to perform under pressure.
and FYI its a glock, if you go looking for a safety to release about all you’ll do is drop the magazine on your toe. It dosen’t have one.
Unfortunately you find this out when it happens to your neighbor, and everyone is somebodys neighbor.
Exactly. If you had children in the house, would you leave your circular saw plugged in?
Never mind. I’m beginning to suspect I live in a dream world.
And how do you know where the “gun” doesn’t shine?
I think you’re jumping to a conclusion here. A pun is hardly a direct insult, and even if it was to be taken literally, I am saying that “unwarranted assumptions” are to be shoved there, not the poster.
No different than saying an argument (not a person) is bullshit (which happens often here), just an (I thought) funny way of putting it.
I guess there is no humor in Great Debates either… :rolleyes:
As for you Anthracite, lighten up, please.
Pundit Lisa: A circular saw is also not a wolf.
An unplugged circular saw is about as effective as a car without gas, or a gun without bullets. But like any other tool, you use it as the need arises, and then put it away after you’re done. For a circular saw, that would be unplugging it, neatly wrapping up the cord, and putting it away with the rest of your tools.
For a gun, it would depend upon why you purchased it in the first place. If you bought it for fun (target shooting and such) then you would clean it, make sure it is unloaded, put a trigger lock on it and put it in a locked case, or a gun safe.
But if you happened to have purchased it for home defense, then locking it away kind of defeats the purpose. So it is incumbent upon the gun-owner to weigh the various domestic factors and ensure that it is safely stored, yet available for use.
Do you leave your car keys out where your kids can get at them? If so, do you worry that your kids are going to take your car without permission and go joyriding?
If not, why?
Might it be because (setting aside the fact your children may not be old enough to physically operate a car, legally or not) you have instructed them that the car is not theirs? That they are not old enough, or experienced enough, to operate a car without adult supervision?
Might it be becuase you have instilled in your children that the car is not theirs to do with as they please? That they must respect other people’s property and not touch or otherwise handle what is not theirs, especially because it is something dangerous that requires a degree of skill and caution to safely be around and operate?
Hmmm?
My Dad’s hobby is woodworking and carpentry. He never forbade me from touching or using his tools, but I never touched them outside of his presence.
He also never locked away his guns. He did fobid me from messing with them, but also taught me how to safely handle and use them, as well as teaching me respect for other people’s stuff.
Consequence: I learned to like firearms and the shooting sports, and above all else, respect firearms as potentially dangerous implements in the hands of the careless or ignorant, and I never touched his guns, or showed them off to my friends after school, without his being present.
Which is why I said I agreed with Satan, in principle, that some form of mandatory training be necessary prior to the purchase of a firearm.
But I have reservations about the actual implementation of such a training/testing system, and how it might potentially be hijacked by the gun-control crowd to deny safe, law-abiding citizens from owning firearms.
Paranoid? Maybe, from your perspective.
From the point-of-view of the gun-owning community, it is a justifiable concern.
Note to the Mods: far be it from me to tell you your jobs (didn’t we do this just recently?), but I don’t feel Satan’s play on words was out of line.
Considering some of the abuse the pro gun-control types here have heaped on us gun-owners/advocates, his statement was relatively harmless and considerably more clever than the usual responses/rebuttals.
Just my $.02, that’s all.
[Moderator Hat ON]
The implication is obvious, Satan, since it is clearly a pun on “where the sun don’t shine.” Where exactly are you claiming that you were telling said poster to shove their implications? In their ear? We’ve warned people for telling others to “stick it in your ear” before, anyhow.
You can’t tell people to shove their post up their ass in GD. It qualifies as an insult in David’s and my qualified option, and I can lend little credence to a claim that you did not intend to be insulting. If someone tells me to shove something up my ass, I do not consider that a reasoned critique of my argument.
There is humor, as you well know. You also well know that disputing a moderator’s decisions should be taken to email or the Pit, given that that has been policy for as long as I can remember and I specifically told you to do so last time I warned you for breaking the rules. Do not do this again.
Extank: I do not wish GDers to strongly imply or outright state that a person’s post should be shoved up their ass. Period. If you feel a poster’s comments to you or any other poster are directly insulting, please notify me and David and we will look into it.
[Moderator Hat OFF]
there’s a difference between loading a magazine and chambering a round before retiring for the night. unless you’re seriously expecting unwanted company during the night (like henry hill sleeping with gun in hand, finger on trigger toward the end of ‘goodfellas’), i would suggest, at the very least, leaving the chamber empty. if you hear an intruder, cock the gun. if there’s no time to cock the gun, there’s probably no time to reach for the gun.
I understand, and I read your prior post here. But I am perhaps unclear on your reason behind it - why do you leave it unchambered? It can’t be because you are worried about children or others getting ahold of it, because I would assume a trigger lock would be a better alternative…or am I assuming too much?
Just curious as to what advantage you feel this has.
Boy, gun control threads just grow like weeds around here, don’t they? With good reason, too–I don’t think there is a definite answer to this one.
Numbers certainly aren’t going to get us anywhere. To determine whether or not one should have a gun, you would have to compare the risk of someone getting hurt/killed because there is a gun in the house vs. someone getting hurt/killed by an intruder because there was not a gun in the house. The former wouldn’t be difficult to ascertain; the latter would be nearly impossible. Kellermann, I think, answers the question that it asked, but drawing any conclusions beyond that is overreaching.
I would like to make two points, though.
–It remains fact that guns bought for protection are sometimes used to hurt or kill someone other than an intruder or attacker. Gun owners usually respond by saying, “Yes, but unlike them, I know what I’m doing, no one in my house is suicidal or homicidal, and I’m going to put the gun where the kids can’t get it.” The problem is that most or all of those other gun owners thought they knew what they were doing, no one in the house was suicidal or homicidal, and the gun was put up where the kids couldn’t get it.
For the most part, I don’t doubt that it’s true–especially around here, where the level of gun knowledge makes me want to stay on everyone’s good side. However, shit happens.
–As Glitch pointed out earlier, an intruder will rarely hurt children. Thus, the risk of someone in the house being hurt/killed by an intruder falls mainly on me or my wife. However, my kids are as likely or more likely than me to be involved in an accidental shooting if I have a gun. So it seems that, statistically, if I have a gun in my house, my risk of being hurt/killed may go down, but the risk for my kids probably goes up. It’s just a hypothesis, and I don’t think the evidence is there to support or refute it, but it seems reasonable to me.
Dr. J
if storing your gun with a live round in the chamber doesn’t immediately strike you as unnecessarily dangerous, i probably don’t have an explanation that will convince you. but here’s one of many: guns can accidentally fire simply by being dropped. if you want to minimize the chance of accidental discharge and injury, the first thing you want to do is make sure the chamber is empty. this is why at the shooting range, the etiquette is that when you’re not standing at the line ready to shoot, you unload your gun and leave the ejection port open so everyone can see it’s not loaded. i really can’t think of a good reason to store a gun at home with a round in the chamber. like i said, if you have time to reach for the gun, you should have time to cock it. if you’re so worried about an intruder that your desire to get the quick jump outweighs any safety measures at all, you should probably just have someone stand guard during the night.
DoctorJ: shame on you!
Conclusion unsubstantiated by facts, or are you claiming first-hand knowledge concerning the mind-sets and assumptions of gun owners, legal or otherwise, who have had an incident with a gun in their home?