Give you an example: I have had at least one knock down, drag out debate over similar issues with tomndebb. Never once have I accused him of trolling, because he doesn’t troll. Never once have I accused him of bigotry, because he isn’t a bigot. And never once did I refuse to provide a cite, because he isn’t a lazy fuck who can’t be bothered to learn about a topic before posting on it.
tom is a poster who I respect and admire greatly. RTF is a dumb troll who can’t be bothered to learn what the fuck he’s talking about, retract his lies once they’re pointed out, or fucking google something before declaring that he doesn’t need to even know what it’s about.
I would be happy to dig up cites in a discussion with tom as he debates in good faith for the most part. I refuse to be used by a troll like RTF, or to feed the lazyness and sense of entitlement of someone who whines that they don’t have to know shit about a topic before posting, and it’s my responsibility to educate them before they get even more petulant. :rolleyes:
You didn’t call me out for it in the linked thread, for obvious reasons. People would have wondered WTF you were talking about. So instead you make up stuff here, about what I said there - then pile on the bullshit by claiming you called me out on the stuff I didn’t say, and that my responses were insufficient.
You are a liar.
I completely agree that there are people in this world who would like to see every Jew killed, down to the last man, woman, and child who has, as I do, some fraction of Jewish blood.
I also agree that there was a campaign of genocide against the Jews by the Nazis.
I’m further aware of Nasser’s “drive Israel into the sea” rants preceding the Six-Day War of 1967.
None of this amounts to a meaningful campaign of genocide against Israel or Jewry in the here and now, any more than Harold Stassen had a meaningful Presidential campaign in 1992.
These attempts, AFAIAC, fall into two categories: serious but long ago, and recent but impotent.
You may disagree with that categorization, but like others have said, that doesn’t make me a troll. It just makes you ridiculous for making the claim of trollery.
I’m quite aware of the Yom Kippur War, thanks. IIRC, Egypt and Syria briefly regained some of the territory they lost in 1967 before losing it again.
Of course, you never once mentioned in the linked thread that you regarded the YK War as an instance of attempted genocide against Israel. (In fact, you never mentioned that war at all after I joined the thread.) If you had, we could have discussed the validity of that there.
I’m amused that you consider me ignorant for having failed to demonstrate my knowledge of a topic that was never raised in our discussion. Kinda shows how absurd your claims are, doesn’t it?
Actually, what happened in the thread was that, when you actually tried to back up your claim that, by my standards, the Palestinians must be Nazis, I demonstrated that, by your own arguments, the Israelis must be considered Nazis as well.
I specifically said that I didn’t believe the Israelis were Nazis, but that your proof worked equally well for either side.
Your proper response was to come up with an argument that would have managed to distinguish Palestinian from Israeli conduct. (Your opinion is that the distinctions are clear-cut, so that should have been easy.) Instead, you just threw a hissy fit.
In the issue of Israeli colonization of the West Bank, the evidence is all on one side, isn’t it? One can try to justify the Israeli military occupation of the West Bank by a ‘the Arabs did this, so the Israelis had to do that’ type of argument.
The Israeli colonization of the West Bank, and its poisonous fruits, has no such argument in its defense. West Bank settlements don’t protect Israel militarily or politically. So any discussion restricted to the issue of the other thread’s OP is going to be one-sided in its ‘demonization’.
You didn’t raise that issue, did you? Oh, my. I’m again a bad boy for having not responded to matters you never raised.
You bet it doesn’t. As I said there, Arab racist talk doesn’t justify Israeli racist actions.
No, I was agreeing that Arab racist talk is a Bad Thing, and a problem that ought to be dealt with, even if it didn’t justify Israeli racist actions. I expressed regret (quite genuine, btw) that the U.S. had put itself in a position of completely undercut its moral authority to address that problem, at a moment when we otherwise might have been able to do something about it.
I explained that in post 119 of that thread, but you are posting here as if I’d never done so. What a maroon.
Ah. I’m a troll because I don’t equate anti-semitic lies by Arabs with attempted genocide.
You know what they say about holes: when you’re in one, don’t keep digging. (I won’t say it; I’m kind of enjoying the spectacle.)
Ah, yes: this is where you repeatedly said, ‘RTF, you haven’t read X, Y, and Z, so you’re not qualified to debate this issue.’ But citing X, Y, and Z to demonstrate their relevance (and demolish my arguments) was too much trouble for you. When put-up-or-shut-up time came, you couldn’t get it up.
All races are social constructs, to some extent based on differences in features and skin coloring.
Sure, ‘Arab’ isn’t a race. Neither is anything else. Call it what you will, it’s damned sure something that figures into how people react to and treat one another.
And once again, I see you are venturing into specifics here that you were unwilling to bring into the original thread. I think this is the third time in your OP here that you criticize me here for not dealing with specifics you never raised there.
Keep digging!
‘Ignores’ = ‘rebutted in post 119’. You declined to reply further.
Keep digging!
Nowhere did I say that no settlements meant no need for military occupation. What I said was that the Israeli-only settlements and roads in the West Bank, rather than the military occupation itself, are what give rise to the pernicious aspects of Israeli rule in the West Bank that Carter equates with apartheid; that Israel could have a military occupation that bore little resemblance to apartheid if it didn’t have the settlements.
I realize that’s a bit subtle for you to grasp, but most of us here can grasp distinctions like that pretty easily. If you can’t, maybe you should forgo the fora on this board dedicated to debate and intellectual discussion, and stick with MPSIMS.
Yer cute.
Not only is it clear from my quote that (a) I specifically wasn’t trying to demonize Israel, and (b) I was simply showing that your argument was so ill-constructed that it supported that demonization, what you leave out is (c) for some reason, you’d just sniped that I was using ‘ironic’ incorrectly. Which was of course as wrong as everything else you said in that thread.
‘Needlessly inflammatory’? Hey, you’re the expert in that! Who am I to disagree?
The weird thing is, you keep quoting words of mine that disprove your point - and you’re so pathetically stupid that you’re oblivious to that.
I make it clear that I used ‘not yet stolen’ because I wasn’t aware that the Israeli lland grabs on the West Bank had ceased - but that I was open to being shown otherwise.
Damned if I know how you equate that with a claim that all of the West Bank will be stolen in time. It’s like saying that the infinite sum 1 + 1/2 +1/4 + 1/8 +… must eventually sum up to everything, simply because it never ceases.
Yep, I haven’t read Hamas’ charter.
So, are you ever going to explain why Hamas’ charter is required reading for the debate in the previous thread?
No. (Another in a series of Simple Answers to Simple Questions, as Atrios would say.)
I care a great deal about the facts, and you have failed to demonstrate otherwise.
But it’s obvious to everyone here except you that not every fact is relevant to a given debate.
Here’s how you do it, little boy:
Rather than say, “out there, there are facts that you don’t know but I do,” state the relevant facts. Playing Junior Gnostic doesn’t cut it here.
Establish the facts’ relevance through arguments.
Be prepared to defend your arguments. “Sorry, but I won’t take your bait” (post 120) as your complete response to a detailed, point-by-point rebuttal, doesn’t cut it at all around here.
Yer even cuter.
The “I didn’t want to feed the troll” argument fails strongly in the face of a half-dozen more posts in that thread, directly or indirectly replying to me, plus a whole 'nother Pit thread here. If I was trolling, you’re giving me all the attention I could possibly want, thanks.
The one thing you won’t do to ‘feed’ me, apparently, is to explain why the Hamas charter (and other documents you refer to) is relevant to the discussion.
Apparently using these facts that you know and I don’t, to, y’know, actually rip my argument to shreds, would be feeding a troll.
Responding to me in all sorts of other ways, wouldn’t be. Keep digging.
Yep, you’re lying again. In post 150, I said, “I’m making no claims about it at all.”
So, let’s sum up. You’re a serial liar, you’re upset at me that I didn’t deal with specifics that you only raised here, rather than in the original thread, you repeatedly say I ignored stuff that I in fact rebutted, you’re upset at me for having not read sources you don’t bother to quote from, link to, or explain their relevance, and apparently your doing so would be the unique sort of response that would constitute troll-feeding. Plus a bunch of other stuff too lengthy to summarize.
I think you’ve unintentionally managed to Pit yourself, rather than me. It is in keeping with the precise aim of your rhetoric elsewhere.
Well, there’s an hour of my life that I’ll never get back, but like in most cases of where one GD’er, “takes it to the pit,” FinnAgain, you’re pitting has backfired on you. You’ve both got some decent points in the original thread, but RTF is holding his own. You just kind of look like a dumbass for dragging this into The Pit.
RTF please see post 143 to 145 of the thread in question, in which you first claim that the actions of Israel in the Summer were in reaction to attacks against military, not civilian, targets, and merely rolleyes when it is pointed out that Qassam rocket attacks ongoing and increasing in number were more the reason for the response and the territorial violation and attacks/kidnappings were merely the triggers. Coupled of course with a reference to the ethnic cleansing meme which had already been debunked.
Jerkish behaviors abound, from baiting with “Ay-rab” comments, to a host of smarmy comments aimed at Finn, and more. But there is a reason I don’t spend too much time in the Pit, and threemae nails it: I got better things to do with that hour than to convince others that you behaved like a jerk and I have little hope that you will reach any epiphany regarding your behavior. I do not generally enjoy trading insults with boors that I’d manage to avoid in real life.
If by holding his own, you mean trolling, then yes, he is. It’s amazing what one can accomplish when liberated from facts, a desire to learn before speaking, intellectual honesty, etc…
It’s a blusterfuck.
He’s a troll. Whether or not you agree. He knows it, I know it, and I got to vent. That’s really all that matters. I’m not going to feed the troll again, but I will point out a few of his more egregious lies from his last post in this thread. Or, of course, how about when he protests that “in post 150” he said that he wasn’t making any claims, except the claim that it was a non sequitor, which he couldnt possibly have known as he still hasn’t read it, and thus, was trolling?
~shrugs~
Think I’m a dumbass all you want, I avoided letting a troll run a GD thread, and I got to vent. I’m quite satisfied.
You are a stupid lying troll, can’t keep track of your own lies, eh ?
Not doing so well, troll? Are ya? Let’s see if you lie some more…
Except… I did. And you’re a lying troll.
[
Boy are you ever stupid. And stupid enough to lie when I can quote you? Man, you’re working on setting new records in the Science of Dumb.
No, actually, you’re just an intellectually dishonest troll, punkin. As no faction in Israel is attempting genocide or basing their education system of negative racial propaganda, all you’ve demonstrated is your truly amazingly shameless intellectual whoring. You actually had to totally refine the term ‘race’ to ignore that it was only national, not racial, ethnic, or cultural. And you had to handwave away facts with a tu quoque fallacy, which you evidently are so fucking stupid that you consider a valid rebuttal.
And, if you remember you lying troll, that’s when you first feigned ignorance (or really were pig ignorant) about ongoing attempts at genocide.
It also goes to show what an intellectually dishonest asshole you are, whose entire goal is to stir up shit and demonize only one side. Even though factions in Palestine, who hold massive influence in government, use the Protocols of Zion and have stated genocidal goals, you won’t “illuminate” the situation by demonizing them. Because you’re just a dumb intellectually dishonest fuck. And if you are lying now, and you were pretending to be ignorant then, you were also trolling. Thank you for playing asshole.
No, once again, you are just a stupid lying troll. Really, * how did you get this stupid?*. I know that you’re dumb enough to consider a document readily available on the internet “secret”, but are you really stupid enough to believe our posts vanish once you want to change them, you dumb liar?
You responded to it, you fucking moron liar, and handwaved it away with a tu quoque fallacy your syphilitic ape.
I guess it’s like my grandmother always warned me “liars have to have good memories.”
I guess it’d also help if they weren’t ignorant idiots who couldn’t’ even keep straight their dishonesty from their intellectual dishonesty from their attempts to stir up shit by being dishonest.
Oh and by the way you lying troll, it’s too stupid, even for a brainstem level clod like you, to deny that you responded to something and then go and claim that you responded to it.
Yes yes you intellectually dishonest fucker, you have defined racism so that it has nothing to do with race, ethnicity, or culture. But nationality.
In other words, in standard mode for you, you choose the least accurate most inflammatory buzzword because, well, you are both an idiot and a fundamentally dishonest infant provocateur.
You should avoid calling others “maroons”, lying troll. Especially since, you damn moron, I did not post as if you didn’t attempt to divert the thread with your idiotic non sequitor babbling about the US. Does whatever the US can or can not do have anything to do with whether the OT’s are in a state of apartheid or not? No? Nothing? You were just trying to divert discussion?
Man, but you’re stupid.
Man, you are actually getting dumber with each line you write. I am impressed. But no, although you are good at displaying yet more dishonesty, you will of course note that I said nothing about equating anti-Semitic lies, but actual actions. You, of course, either were pig ignorant then, or as you now claim, only pretending to be ignorant. That is… by your own claims, you’re a filthy troll.
I will also point out that you just claimed above that you knew of such actions, but that they were ‘impotent’. Now, of course, you want to troll by lying your filthy little head off and claim that it’s just “lies”, not actions, by some Arabs. You’re not even smart enough to keep your story straight from one line to another in the same post.
Again, you stupid lying troll. I never claimed it was too much trouble for me. Your are again feigning ignorance, asshole. No, I refused to feed your trolling, and you know it. Especially after reading this thread.
And an even better point, you wilfully ignorant troll, is why you didn’t google them in all this free time you’ve spent pissing and moaning about how I should educate you. Is it, perhaps, because you do not and did not have any desire to know jack shit about the topic you were deliberately casting inflammatory bullshit around in?
Sure it could, because you’re a troll.
A nation at war with them. But then, that’d rob you of your deliberately dishonest inflammatory buzzwords which you use to stir shit up.
Kittens keeping me up, figured I’d add one more post. Threemae, look at the actions of this troll who you are defending.
How many lies were in his last post alone? A half dozen? More? Fuck, there are some cases where he lies line to line or paragraph to paragraph, much like his post where he says that he’s “not making any claims” and then goes right on to make the claim that it’s not relevant. Or when, several times, he has lied in this thread and claimed that I didn’t bring things up when he responded to them in the other thread!
I mean, fuck, this idiot troll makes claims like, nawww, he wasn’t being deliberately inflammatory in suggesting that the entire West Bank might be confiscated. In reality, he was talking about Xeno’s paradox, and didn’t mean to state anything! Really! It was about the infinite sum of ever reducing fractions, not the increasing sum of plots of land measuring X acres.
You believe that, right? He’s not lying now and attempting to troll this thread too, and he really thought that the land in the west bank is an infinite sum of ever decreasing fractions? Do you honestly believe that, or do you think he’s a troll?
He is a liar. He has lied through his teeth in order to stir up shit in the other thread. He has lied through his teeth in this thread in order to stir up shit. He has even lied in order to call me a liar.
This is the troll you are supporting. He’s as bad as BibleMan and “holds his own” for exactly the same reasons.
Ask yourself, honestly, as I’m sure you’ve approached this thread honestly, why it is that he’s already been caught out in many, many lies just in this thread. Why, most importantly, he refuses to admit his own words in the other thread, let alone take responsibility for them.
An honorable man does not act in such a manner.
A liar does. A troll does.
And you want to know why this belongs in the Pit rather than the GD thread? Because assholes like this fucking troll shouldn’t get the run of GD. They shouldn’t get the run of the board. Or motto is “fighting ignorance” not “The Fighting Ignorants.” What damn purpose does his trolling serve, other than to disrupt honest debate? When this troll can’t even keep his trolling straight, and forgets things that he made up in the other thread and denies them in this thread. No, he knows that he’s a troll, I know that he’s a troll. He knows, in his little filthy troll heart, that he was pissed off that I wouldn’t take his bait, that no matter how many times he kept trying and trying in the GD thread, I kept telling him I wouldn’t let him troll me. And when it was clear that I wouldn’t feed his trolling, he declared victory.
Trolls like this piece of shit should be banned. We have more than enough people who don’t know much about certain topics. We certainly don’t need people that know virtually nothing about topics posting in them, in an attempt to be as inflammatory as possible, with massive intellectual dishonesty… when they’re not outright making shit up.
Trolls like RTF add nothing, at all, while they’re trolling threads.
What, the thread in GD needed someone who didn’t know the facts, didn’t want to know the facts, made shit up, didn’t retract his made up shit, denied saying his made up shit, and in general was a dishonorable, dishonest troll? The best thing the mods could do is clean house and get rid of asshole trolls like this one.
No, I’m saying your stated reasons are full of shit. And saying that you are pathetically trying to cover your ass by moving to a place where you can get personal rather than debate facts. So, How’s that working for ya?
You keep using that word, but I’m going by the evidence from the other thread, not your pathetic post hoc ass-covering in this one.
No, I’m going by your* actions* in that thread. They speak louder.
So you can point out where American farmers have set up farms in Iraq, can you, since they’re both just, you know, military occupations? It’s the settlements that make Israel’s situation different.
Genocide involves actually, you know, killing lots of people. Something Israel has been better at than its neigbours for quite some time now. Yet even I wouldn’t go so far as to call Israel’s actions in the OTs genocide.
But you have yet to explain why Hamas’ call for genocide has any bearing on the presence of settlements.
Well, since you didn’t bother to try and show how it had bearing (and still haven’t), I’d say he’s perfectly within his rights as a debater to ask you to show relevance. As far from trolling as you can get, but then you know that already.
Let’s see -they were/are both liberation movements with an armed wing, who show intentions of being the government of the territories they seek to liberate. A vocal pre-liberation breakaway arm of the ANC (the PAC) was also all for white genocide. I’m sure the members of Hamas could sympathise with the old struggle slogan “One Settler, One Bullet!”. It doesn’t even need to be changed for situation.
Gosh, yes, no similarities there, you’re right. Idiot.
Why would you need internal checkpoints if there are no settlements or linking roads?
This happens every second Israel=Apartheid thread or so.
Is someone again presuming to tell me what apartheid is? Because the only two words in reply would be Fuck and You.
I’ve addressed this stupid point above.
You haven’t seen my opinions in Iraq threads, have you? Believe me, I got plenty of demonization to go around, and the Occupation Forces in “that other OT” get off a lot worse.
What’s Arsenal Footbal Club got to do with this?
Oh, you mean the ANC? Nope, no worse than - the ANC’s armed wing also carried out bombings of civilian targets like Hamas does.
Maybe you can show me how they are different, since you seem to know enough about them both to spout off that they are not, in fact similar. Or would you be spouting off without knowing what you’re talking about? Surely not, because that would be “trollery” to you, wouldn’t it?
I know enough about them to not want to be their best buds forever, if that’s what you’re asking.
But on the other hand, maybe you who know so much about logical fallacies also know what a false dilemma is? One can be against Israel’s current policies, and call them loaded names, without being for the opposition, as your side keeps trying to imply.
All military occupations should be demonized when they are wrong.
The one trying to frustrate honest discussion here is you, with your “I won’t answer those points because you’re a smelly troll” bullshit. If** RTF** is wrong, prove him wrong. If he’s as wrong as you say, it should be trivial. But I’m not holding my breath.
I was a member in good standing of the ANC, enough to know that Hamas and the ANC have a lot in common.
You have used the same term, “intellectual dishonesty” so many times without actually showing me why you make this accusation as if repeating it will somehow make it so.
Nope. You’re the only one who ‘knows’ it, and like the man said, it’s the things you know that ain’t so that are the problem.
Can’t argue there.
Ah, yes. Can’t ‘feed the troll’ by actually arguing the facts, but you’re willing to give an alleged troll a great deal of attention in every other which way.
I think I’ll let the sheer degree of dumbness of that assertion stand by itself. I can’t possibly add to its glory.
Wow. You’re reading a lot into “Plenty of that on both sides,” aren’t you?
You know, the polite thing to do, if you’re in any doubt about what a poster means, is ask for clarification, rather than assuming a potentially ambiguous phrase means the exact thing that would best suit your argumentative purposes.
It should have occured to you to wonder, does he mean “killings”? “civilian killings”? “targeted civilian killings”? It should have occured to you to consider the context provided by the poster. Did that “three times as many” refer to targeted killings, killings overall, or what?
Nah, you’d rather be an asshole. You got to vent, after all, and you were getting your ass handed to you in the original thread. So you come here, spin everything your way, and still manage to look like an idiot.
There’s a message here for you, but I don’t think anyone’s home to receive it.
Ummm, it’s pretty obvious that I was referring to your claim that “First, he lies through his teeth and accuses the IDF of targeting civilians.”
I never once made that claim in the original thread, and (in that thread) you never claimed I did. But you made it here, and when I pointed out that this was a baldfaced lie, you’ve gone back and tried to muddy the waters.
It won’t work. You’re a liar, and you’re trying to cover up your lies.
FinnAgain, the bearer of false witness.
If none of us can trust you to tell the truth on matters such as this that we all can check this easily, why should we trust you about the Hamas charter or whatever? At this point, if you said the sun rises in the east, I’d go check to be sure.
Let’s see: I didn’t say Israel was attempting genocide, didn’t say they were using racial propaganda in their educational system.
You’re just throwing around shit, hoping it works.
So you’re saying that, as a cultural construct, nobody considers ‘Arab’ a racial or ethnic grouping? Truly interesting.
Nah, I demonstrated that the fallacy in question was yours. Apparently ignoring that and reiterating your claim is what passes for rebuttal in the shallows of your mind.
Like others have said in this thread (and the other one, IIRC) genocide involves the killing of a lot of people. If you attempt to murder me with a chalkboard eraser, nobody’s gonna take it very seriously, not even me. If the Arabs attempt genocide against Israel by distributing anti-Semitic propaganda, it’s not exactly a serious attempt at genocide, even if its worthy of condemnation.
You’re the one who’s repeatedly waving the red flag of genocide on such a thin basis - and then accusing me of using inflammatory terms.
Finn: I was arguing the same side you were in that thread, although I think I participated largely before you did. But I can’t make hide nor hair out of your accusations in this thread. Your posts are so heavily laden with emotional outbursts that they obscure your main points. At any rate, I can’t see RTF’s behavior as trollish, but if you’re convinced that they are, you should make a case to the mods-- trolling in GD is against the rules. If you can’t convince them, you should reconsider your position. After all, I don’t think anyone in this thread agrees with you on that so far.
Funny thing is, we both felt that Jimmy Carter was misuing an inflamatory word to give his argument more impact, yet you seem to be doing the exact same thing here. Take a deep breath and jump back into the debate if you think you have a case to make. You’re making yourself look very bad here. Besides, we all agree that settlements = bad, so it’s not really all that important what you call the situation. I’d call it colonialism and occupation, others call it apartheid. I think that’s a minor matter compared to the fact that Israel should **never **have allowed settlements in the West Bank to begin with.
Oh, and just to show that much like RTF, you are an ignorant motherfucker who can’t read before he posts:
What do you think has been going on now in Gaza, you tool?
Advice: Look up “appeal to authority”, use a crowbar to take your head out of your rectum.
Being that you had to lie in order to make your comparision, it looks like you’re not only an idiot, but a liar.
Let’s start, shall we? Hamas is not a liberation movement, it aims at the destruction of the entirety of Israel. That’s one lie. Hamas’ charter calls for genocide, on a global scale, and there is doctrinal uniformity in the entire party. A comparison missed either because you’re too lazy to do the reading (most likely) or deliberately dishonest.
See, doesn’t reading something before you make youself look like an ignoant schmuck sound good? Or follow RTF’s path, where he is now evidently reduced to lying through is little troll teeth about text that’s in black and white.
Pathetic.
I stated several times exactly why I was making that charge.
Hrm. Simply put, RTF got into a debate without having done the research and then proceeded to be as inflammatory as possible: this is trolling.
He displayed numerous instances of intellecual dishonesty, from demonizing only one side to wilfully ignoring current genocidal actions are not mere “words”.
By that, and a dozen other things, he has shown that he has no interest in honest debate .He will pretend that in accusing Israel of being on a course that would have them take the entirety of the West Bank, that he was really talking about Xeno’s paradox. That when he responds to something about “civilian targeted killings” and says “A lot of those on both sides.” that no, he’s not actually responding to the words on the page, he really meant something totally different. The Hamas charter isn’t relevant… not that he made any statements about it… except that it wasn’t relevant, but he didn’t make any claims about that document he stated was irrelevant. :rolleyes:
Etc… observe just from this thread the lies he’s heaped on.
He is a liar, intellectually dishonest, and ignorant. Put all those three together in service of crapping all over a thread, and he’s a troll.
I’ve had the conversation with them many times. Essentially, it boils down to the fact that they’re generally willing to error on the side of reliving a poster is really stupid rather than a troll. I see someone who is a liar, intellectually dishonest, doesn’t know about the topic he’s posting on, and posting to stir up shit. I see that as trolling. Even if the mods agreed that it might be trolling, they would most likely chalk it up to RTF simply being stupid and dishonest. Do you remember how long it took DRMark 200 to be removed? RTF is a troll only in certain threads.
It’s a shame, really. Which is why I hope that he steps out of line far enough to get the mods to take action.
I don’t require people to agree with me. While he is composing his rebuttal lies, he has to know what’s going on. You think he’s sitting there going “Ahhh… when I was trying to yank people’s chains in the other thread and implied that all of the West Bank would be taken… I was really thinking of Xeno’s paradox. Are plots of land there in acres, or increasingly small fractions of an infinite whole?”
I mean, come on.
He entered a debate with the purpose of pissing people off, from a position of ignorance, without being willing to acknowledge factual refutations (even now, rather than retract his lie, he now claims that a direct response to a direct quote, where he said that there were a “lot of those on both sides.” wasn’t actually refering to those :rolleyes: )
Someone who comes into a thread only to stir shit up, doesn’t know or care about the issues involved, and is dishonest and dishonorable in their pursuit of pissing people off is a troll.
He knows he’s a troll. He knows that while pretending that he was really talking about Xeno’s Paradox, that his excuse is flimsy. Why else would he be so very desperate to deny what’s in black and white, if he stands by it?
Naw. I have defined exactly what about his behavior is trolling. And it is exactly as trolling as the person who knows nothing about quantum mechanics, goes into a thread on quantum mechanics, and attempts to be as obnoxious, dishonest, and inflammatory as possible. We don’t need people like that here, and we certainly don’t need liars or trolls like RTF to fuck over threads in GD of all places.
Sure, if there are people who post in it who aren’t trolls, I’ll be happy to. I’ve gotten into a bit of a tangent with DSeid, but no I will not feed RTF. Motherfucker should be banned, or at least kept out of threads that he plans on trolling.
Really? I’d think that every one of my accusations has been validated.
-Liar: Check, double check. Just look at this thread. “Yeah… I said it was not relevant. But I made no claims. Except that it was relevant. And you’re a liar if you said I made any claims, except where I claimed that it wasn’t relevant.” He’s sad enough to actually lie in order to claim I was lying.
-Intellectually dishonest: Observe, for instance, how he characterizes the settlements as something that will one day swallow all the west bank (his silly lying about Xeno’s Paradox aside), and yet handwaves away an actual campaign of genocide. He’s not interested in demonizing everybody, he’s just interested in being an obnoxious bombastic prick in order to stir up shit. Which brings me to…
-Not interested in honest debate: I mean, hell, just look at his conduct in this thread. Many of his positions he now denies, he tries to change many of them retroactively, and simply makes up other shit, like claiming that I hadn’t said anything to him in the other thread about racist propaganda… and then he goes on discuss his response in the other thread to the point he claimed I didn’t actually raise in the other thread! Or how he, continually, wilfully ignorantly or lying through his teeth in order to stir up shit (trolling) talks about how the ongoing campaign of genocide against Israel is all talk.
All of these taken together shows that his real goal is not learning, or honest debate, but stirring up shit. He’s a troll.
And it is enough that he and I both know he’s a troll. Others can remain unconvinced.
Finn never pits someone who can kick his ass. Askia is totally safe because he’s a way better pitter than Finn. I’m actually surprised he’s taking on RFT–someone must have bought him some balls for the holidays.
“Intellectual dishonesty” is Finn’s new “coward”–he has to have a catch phrase.
Finn, as usual, you are being an ass. RTF may not agree with you but he is not trolling. He is not posting crap just to rile people up–he is debating you. And by the way, he’s kicking your whiney ass.
Curiosity got the better of me so I decided to check the train wreck that prompted this pitting (link in OP). For a page and a half it went fairly well. Maybe **RTF ** didn’t have all the facts straight, I can’t be bothered to double check every claim right now. But then **Finn ** showed up and started swinging, first at **spoke- ** and then at RTF. Talk about thread shitting.
I can’t see anything trollish about **RTF ** in that thread, however I do find a very condescending **Finn ** who is so bent on getting **RTF ** banned, he starts inventing trollism out of thin air. It seems like this pitting is back firing on Finn, no doubt since he’s coming across as a banshee on meth.
Finn, my friend, I am cutting you a lot of slack because I know of your personal stake in the Arab/Israeli mess, but I must echo others who have said this Pitting is unmerited, and is backfiring badly on you.
It’s something I’ve noticed about you, that when you let emotion overrule reason you start screaming about your opponents being liars. Posts by you with multiple quotations from the object of your wrath interlarded with commentary laden with vituperation that always, always comes back to dishonesty tell me that you’ve lost control of your temper and have begun swinging wildly – no matter how cool-headed and reasoned you think you’re being.
I say this as someone who regards you with friendship: Please step away from this and let it drop. Your friends here at the Dope and your blood pressure will thank you.
I don’t. Does he live there? Have relatives there? (I don’t think just being Jewish would count as a “personal stake,” though I’ve known Jews who would argue fiercely to the contrary.)
First of all, I’d do something about that anger management problem if I were you.
Second, the place to raise the issue of Palestinian use of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was in the initial thread, not here. That, not this, was the place for greater specificity and particularity on the issues.
Third, there’s no meaningful way in which the Israeli-enforced apartheid on the West Bank is a counter to anti-Semitic racism on the part of the Palestinian government.
Again, I’d recommend anger management classes.
And anger or no anger, I’d recommend not reading too much into what are clearly offhand phrases, like “secret bullshit knowledge.” I’m surprised you didn’t also jump up and down, declaring that I’d called the Hamas charter “bullshit.” Or “knowledge.” Whichever would be most advantageous to your desire to jump up and down.
I was referring to your bringing up The Protocols of the Elders of Zion in this thread, which you made nary a mention of in our discussion in the other thread.
Unlike you, I can keep track of what I’ve said. It’s really a lot easier to do that when one is relatively calm. Anger blinds you. I can see you at your keyboard, typing away a mile a minute, burning too hot to take the time to actually readclearly. Besides, you’re so sure I’m wrong, lying, trolling about everything, that you can just let your words fly, without taking the time to read what I’m saying, to see if I might actually be consistent throughout.
Ah, now ‘Arab’ is a nationality.
Did you know there were over 20 nations in the Arab League? I bet they’re surprised to find that ‘Arab’ is a single nationality, rather than an attribute that the peoples of over 20 nations share.
I see you now have insight into the motivations of others.
No, I wasn’t trying to divert the discussion. But you would like to believe it so, and there’s no way I can convince you otherwise. You got to vent, and the truth will not be an obstacle.
Let’s review the bidding, shall we?
From your OP in this thread:
My response to that was:
As anyone can see, this thread of the discussion has completely been about Arab anti-Semitic propaganda.
It’s a little late in the game to claim that we were discussing actions rather than propaganda, and that I’ve suddenly chosen to ignore that. But you’re doing it anyway. This says a great deal about you.
You’re confused, as usual. I never said you claimed it was too much trouble for you to quote the Hamas charter. Your actions demonstrate that.
You have lots of energy for ranting at me in this thread - which somehow is not ‘feeding the troll’, but actually bringing in the facts you claim are so relevant would be, by your pretzel logic.
No, I can’t figure that one out either, folks.
It’s because, for about six or seven years on this board, the single debate practice that has bugged me the most is a poster who will cite some source and say, in effect, “something at that link supports my argument and refutes yours,” without bothering to quote, summarize, or otherwise show how.
This seemingly requires me to go to that source, ferret out just what it is in that source that supposedly backs up my opponent’s argument, and then come up with a refutation to that argument.
IOW, I’m expected to do some research, not to back up my own argument, but to back up my opponent’s case, to place the evidence gleaned by my research into an argument on behalf of my opponent, and then rebut that argument I’ve implicitly made on my adversary’s behalf.
I am steadfast in my refusal to play that game. Have been for years.
So when you come along, and you don’t even provide a link, you think I’m going to do you any more favors than I’d do for debate opponents who do at least link to the site that supposedly refutes me?
If you do, you’re once again sadly deluded. You make your arguments, and back them up with cites, quotes, links, summaries, etc. from the relevant sources. I’ll do the same for my own arguments. We’ll see who has the better of it. That’s how it works.
But I’ll be damned if I’ll do your work for you in GD or any other debate forum. If you can’t be bothered to properly make your own case, why should I do it for you? I want to work on my own argument, not yours.
You done yet, or you gonna feed this troll some more?
I love the smell of self-Pitting roast ignoramus in the morning.
Trolls deserve to be pitted. I don’t know what else to say. Why more people aren’t disgusted at this filthy lying troll is beyond me. I mean, he is continuing to lie in this very thread.
Objectively, is he not a liar? I mean honestly, is he not? Is he not now, and was he not before, using his lies in order to stir up shit? Is lying in order to stir up shit not trolling?
I mean, how many lies in this thread alone? Are we into the dozens? From the truly laughable like the “Xeno’s Paradox” lie, to claims that a discussion over an “ongoing campaign of genocide” was really just about words, to pretending that since Palestinian is a nationality not an ethnicity that I’m saying that ‘Arab’ is an ethnicity ?
Is he not a liar, is he simply too stupid to keep these things straight?
All I can hope is that eventually he’ll step out far enough and be removed. Because whether or not you agree with my anger, you can’t really deny that he is a liar, that he is intellectually dishonest, and that he did crap all over that thread simply to stir shit up. We need fewer assholes who can’t even be bothered to read up on a topic before whining about how their opponents have to educate them.
Am I wrong? Is he not a liar? I mean, fuck, he’s lied probably at least a dozen times in this thread alone.
First off, if you don’t have the time to double check his claims, you could at least look at his obvious lies in this very thread. And if you don’t know if he was lying to stir up shit, then you can’t know if he was trolling, right?
Moreoever, I can’t see how you can call debunking spoke-'s bullshit assertion “thread shitting”. And then ignore that his response to a factual challenge was to resort to pure ad hominems.
And just in case you were commited to an honest appraisal, you’d notice that RTF posted to me first, and started with his baiting in his very first phrase about “Ay-rabs”. :rolleyes:
