Furt:
Nowhere did I say that, nor did I say Adam said that Adam hates all who don’t belong to his sect. What I did say, and what I’ve asked, is for him to show if he’s going to continue using his own definitions of words or the definitions used by the majority of people who speak the language.
Jodih: I’m not askance to someone asking me to examine the validity of my beliefs. Quite the contrayr, in fact; I question the validity of that belief quite often as I question the validity of all beliefs.
But there is a thing called language and it is composed of words and those words have definitions. One of those words is Christian. The definition, IMHO, is pretty clear.
Now, you may note, I did not ask “Do you believe those particular Christians are in error?” Heck, Paul wrote to folks who, in his view, were steeped in error. Yet he still called them Christians.
I think I’ll go with the example set by Saul of Tarsus when it comes to this.
Cheers!
-Chip
But to what end, Monty? I mean, we can all define “green” as a particular color made of a mix of yellow and blue, and further agree in practice what “green” is as a matter of fact by reference to green objects (grass, apples, whatever). And Adam may come along and say that “green” is really “blue” – blue adulterated with yellow – and insist on referring to it as blue. You might establish that most people accept green as an “independent” color and most people agree that blue means something else, but that doesn’t change Adam’s hypothetical take on the situation.
Adam obviously ascribes to a very narrow definition of Christianity; he limits the term to those who believe substantially the same things that he does. Do most people accept such a narrow definition? Clearly not. But that doesn’t mean he’s “wrong” to employ it for himself.
I understand your frustration and anger at being excluded as a Christian – it pissed me off when he tried to tell me I’m not a Christian when (a) AFAIC, I pretty clearly am, and (b) much of my personal definition comes from my self-identity as a Christian. He was wrong to do it to me, and he was wrong to do it to you. But you appear to be now demanding that he “take it back;” he can’t take it back, because it’s what he really believes – irritating as it is – and your continuing insistence that he do so is only an invitation to another argument.
Similarly, he’s not going to agree to use your (our) definition of Christianity, because it isn’t his. Is he wrong in that? I think so, but then I think he’s wrong about a lot of things.
What he said.
From Monty:
“What I did say, and what I’ve asked, is for him to show if he’s going to continue using his own definitions of words or the definitions used by the majority of people who speak the language.”
I find this rather amusing. As I have pointed out in a previous discussion, the World Council of Churches continues to refuse to admit the LDS church because the “majority” of Christian religions do not, in fact, consider the beliefs of Mormons to be substantially equivalent to Christian theology. And, as I pointed out before, espousing typical Mormon beliefs–such as God was once a man, man can become God, eternal marriage, Jesus is God’s physical offspring, etc., would get you excommunicated or disfellowshipped. Just because someone includes part of your beliefs in their religion, it does not follow they are the same as your religion. I think Jews would be highly offended if Christians started referring to themselves as Jews simply because they both base their religions in the Old Testament and the Christians had “new revelations” that added to the religion. Each is separate and distinct.
For orthodox Christian religions to change their minds and accept Mormons as complete equals in the worship of Jesus Christ would require them to abandon most of the basic tenants of their theological beliefs.
P.S. This kid Adam writes a nice apology. He starts off really strongminded, but he tries. Monty doesn’t give quite such a positive impression–did the “incorrect” translations of the Bible mispeak–do Mormons now believe that forgiving those who seek forgiveness is optional? If so, another distinct difference between orthodox Christianity and the LDS.
Snarkberry said:
I agree 100% (as I have indicated elsewhere. But, hey, just ask Adam, he’ll tell you he isn’t at all insecure. Yet another case where what Adam says and how Adam acts are two very different things.
Well, in Adam’s defense, nobody’s perfect. If someone ever holds me to everything I’ve said, I’ll be in trouble! (g)
Smilingjaws: & within 24 hours that kid, Adam, blows it. Reread what I’ve posted in response to him throughout the board and y’all might just see that I’ve given him an “out” in the answer to the queries above. That would be the judicious use of the word “opinion.”
If he would like to use the word “green” for something else, fine. So long as he identifies it as an opinion.
Adam is apparently unable to understand what an opinion is. Apparently, “Truth” is defined in his usage as “what Adam believes.”
Boy Monty, you REALLY can’t let things go can you? Again you mention my apology? Which is in the past? Can we move on now, please? I think it’s best if I don’t say anything about LDS anymore. Whether it’s good, or bad. In fact, I think it’s best that I not give any opinions on any religion ever again on this board. Some people are bound to get the wrong idea.
Jodih, Furt, Smiling Jaws, Bill…etc. Thanks for the defense. It’s nice to see that you understand what’s going on, even though you disagree with some of my beliefs.
Adam
“Life is hard…but God is good”
Adam wrote:
Whoever said we have to agree on every subject in order to respect each other? YW.
May I please apologise for misspelling tenet as tenant?
Sorry!
Smilingjaws, I have no objection to you having tenants of your beliefs, so long as they pay their intellectual rent on time and keep their dogmas from shedding all over the furniture! 
Adam – I think that every poster here values the exchange of ideas between people of differing viewpoints, and the chance to learn from each other. Nobody wants you to keep totally away from any question involving religion, just avoid bashing other people.
E.g., I think that the whole idea of Wicca is out to lunch, so far as I know anything of it. (And what I have seen does not encourage me to go any deeper in it.) This is a statement of opinion. I have not by this statement slammed AuraSeer or Matt_mcl, who are devout Wiccans. (Right? Don’t want to make any misstatements in this of all posts.) I have not called them stupid for practicing it. They are getting something valuable to them out of it, and from what I’ve seen of each of them, it’s a path to God for them. The fact that I think that it’s getting from San Diego to Los Angeles by way of Halifax, Nova Scotia so far as metaphors of the Way go is my opinion, which I do not try to inflict on them. Nor have I said that a vengeful God will take them to Hell for following their Craft, without even passing Go and collecting 200 souls. If I believed that, I would find a way to say to them that I sincerely thought that and wanted to warn them of the peril I saw for them, without in the process castigating the beliefs they sincerely hold. Same for LDS. My understanding of Mormon theology leads me to think that they are not only in left field, but in a whole nother ballpark. But I respect them for who they are (great people, by and large, including all the LDS posters here) and what they sincerely believe, and I will argue with respect for their opinions and beliefs. God being greater than any of us, it’s entirely possible that we’re all mistaken, and it’s quite clear that all but one or two of us are mistaken on any point we disagree on – regardless of who’s right, no more than one incompossible idea may be valid. (Always wanted to find a place where I could use “incompossible” in a meaningful sentence!) For the record, by any definition I know, LDS are Christians, heretical by anyone’s standards but their own, but valid Christians. They have been baptized (and baptism by heretics is valid even under RC dogma); they have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. They just think he took a short detour to America en route to Heaven to save the Nephites and the Lamanites (which I always used to get confused with chocolate drinks and that plastic they seal your ID card in). 
Adam, we’ve bandied labels about here before. In your opinion, what constitutes being a Christian? How do you become one? How do you cease being one? I think I know your answers, but I’m asking you to post them verbatim. Without agreed definitions, argument gets nowhere.
I am really, really curious why facts seem to be ignored in the issue of whether or not to consider Mormons Christian. Practically EVERY orthodox Christian religion teaches that Mormons are not Christian according to the teachings of the New and Old Testament–this because the Mormons have added additional texts whose teachings contradict the basic Christian beliefs.
Basic Christian Beliefs include such things as
God is and was not ever a man–he is omniscient, omnipresent, and all powerful. He has existed in all time and space and will do so for eternity. To believe that he was once a man is to demean his greatness, his Godliness, and the nature of his Supreme Being. It is heretical and blasphemous to believe that God was once a man.
God’s Son is Jesus. Jesus is both wholly man and wholly God. He was born of a virgin–not born the physical son of a god-man and Mary.
Lucifer was once an angel–not one of the sons of God. He attempted to set himself up as equal to God and he has become God’s enemy. Satan is NOT Jesus’ brother–indeed he is not a MAN he is a fallen ANGEl. Men do not become angels. Angels do not become Men.
No man can become a God. The very idea is blasphemous. The sheer arrogance of that thought is astounding.
There is no marriage in heaven–Jesus himself declared this. God doesn’t have wives. There are no spirit babies which form the souls of earthly babies.
Man is saved solely through the Grace of God. His position in relation to God is that of dross before purity. God is so awe inspiring that man cannot even look at him except through the Grace of Jesus.
God does not call men to heaven with secret names. God does not let men call their wives to heaven with secret names. God is not bound by the ceremonies of man so there is no need for ceremonial baptism of the dead. Living people are baptized as a visible sign to the world that they chose to be followers of Christ. Baptism is one of the holiest and sacred of ceremonies. Christian faiths differ on their practice of baptism, but all believe it is important and not simply a prayer or wish for God’s grace. It is a holy act of devotion on the part of the servant toward his God.
These are a few of the differences between Mormon theology and Christian theology.
The World Council of Churches and the National Council of Churches have refused to admit the Mormons because they do not believe they are part of the catholic (note the little “c”) church.
This FACT has been pointed out several times. Yet, posters still insist that the majority of Christians also consider Mormons to be Christians.
I wonder if you do not mean–the Christians you know consider Mormons to be Christian. Lots of cultural Christians would agree with that statement–mostly people who do not actively practice their faith or practice an individualized faith sans fellowship with other believers in an organized setting. Church leaders, such as the Pope, the Bishops, the SBC President, the Synods, the councils, the whatevers, and the devout members of these churches do NOT consider Mormons as Christian, but instead as followers of a religion based on the Bible but whose tenets have so drastically departed from the New Testament beliefs as to blasphemy.
Please, please use the facts. Orthodox Christianity–both Catholic and Protestant–do not consider Mormons Christians. Check out some of their web pages. Many have information on why they don’t believe Mormons are Christian.
Many individual Christians may not agree with the position of their church and may have more inclusive standards. But, the fact remains that Mormons are NOT considered or accepted as Christian by the majority of Christians.
This does not mean they are not nice people, hard working, etc. This does not mean that the Mormon church is now a threat to social stability as it once was in its early days. This does not mean they should be shunned, discriminated against, etc. (Although I don’t make a practice of welcoming missionaries into my home)
I might also point out that the Mormon church doesn’t think much of other Christian churches either–otherwise why are they so busy trying to prozetelize believers in other religions into their own? Because they believe they are the only true church. Their original founder said that the other churches were wrong and they are still trying to convert Catholics, Presbyterians, Jews, New Agers, Shintoists (sp?) etc, etc, etc.
AND, let’s not forget–if a Mormon leaves the Mormon church to join a Christian faith–his family and friends will usually become highly upset and do everything possible to prevent him leaving, just as Christian families do when their children become Mormons. The Mormon Church will try hard to keep its members from apostocizing and joining Christian churches. Some people have had to resort to threatening lawsuits in order to get their name removed from the rolls of the Mormon church (see stories on the exmormon.org web site).
Most orthodox Christian Churches accept other Christian faiths as being basically the same–in other words–same product, different brand–although sometimes you will find individuals who have a different viewpoint and there are still Catholic-Protestant divisions. Mormons are a different product all together–they start with some of the same basic resources but so much more is added the end product is different.
That being said–that is why I think it was entirely inappropriate for Monty to demand that Adam admit that Monty was a Christian. It would be demanding that Adam renounce his own religious beliefs in order to accept what he (and the vast majority of other Christians) believe to be blasphemy.
Aw geez, this was shaping up to be such a nice thread. Can we please not start another holy war?
If a=b and a=c, then b=c. If Jesus=man and Jesus=God, then God=man. I’m not sure why smilingjaws seems to have such a problem with that. Logically speaking, it’s so basic as to boggle the mind. As a point of theology, it seems fairly obvious.
Smilingjaws: I disagree. There is no church that is more Christian than the LDS church. As for what others think, it really doesn’t matter. Just because “a majority of Christians” believe something, doesn’t make it necessarily true. In the past and present, “a majority of Jews” think that all Christian churches are out to lunch. And guess what? “A majority of Wiccans” don’t believe that Christianity is true.
Just because you say so, doesn’t make it so. 
Snarkberry
You are exactly right and that is my point
Just because one person says it so does not make it so!
That’s why I posted! I simply don’t know why it’s so hard to understand. If someone claims to be part of the catholic (little c)Christian Church–and to believe about the same as the organized groups which are part of that church–then it does matter whether or not they accept you into that group! I am not trying to start a theological war. I am just trying to point out an obvious fact–that although the Mormon church claims to be part of the great body of Christian believers, few of those believers accept Mormons as equals.
Let me try another analogy. There are churches which call themselves Mormon. These groups are offshoots of the orginial Mormon church. In fact, they more closely adhere to the original teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young–they still practice polygamy. If I say, oh of course, Mormons still practice polygamy, Snarkberry, you will quickly correct me–these groups are not the “true” Mormon church–they practice things that the current leaders of the Mormon Church had stated will lead to excommunication. They do call themselves Mormons. If I, (as a non-mormon) chose to believe that all people who call themselves Mormons are Mormons, then I would be perfectly right in believing that Mormons still practice polygamy. Instead, I accept that they are not mainline Mormons, but instead are entirely different groups representing their own interpretation of the Mormon faith.
Maybe a kinder solution would be to adopt another term. Although it comes from a kinda wierd source–Madeline Murray O’Hair called Christians “Christers” Why can’t the Mormon church adopt some term like that–to indicate that they do base their religion partly on Jesus Christ–but not entirely? It just would seem more honest, open, and forthright.
I’m not going to dispute your assertions, Smilingjaws, because factually you seem to have all the arguments laid out on target.
My point, such as it was, was that it was not orthodoxy so much as orthopraxy that counted – obviously, from the point of view of orthodoxy, there is only One True Church and everybody else is wrong (though we will all differ as to which it is! ;)). On the other hand, virtually every church suggests that one or both of two things is “necessary for salvation”: either one is baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, or one makes the confession of Jesus as their personal Savior and Lord. Latter Day Saints, to the best of my knowledge and belief, meet both these criteria. Never mind that their understanding of God’s nature would give the average Catholic or Protestant the screaming heebee-jeebees, and that the Jesus they confess has a quite different post-Resurrection life than any evangelical Christian would accept. Tom could never accept the priest of my church, much less her husband, as having “valid orders.” Adam would find our doctrine completely off the wall, particularly the Real Presence and the optional auricular confession, to say nothing of our chalice-bearer who is “unequally yoked” in fundy. parlance – her wife is not a Christian. (Yes, you read that right.) And Monty and Snarkberry would think our rejection of the Doctrine of Eternal Progression marks us as hopelessly heretical.
Do I have a point in all this? Yep – we’re all trying to find the Way (Adam, do NOT quote the Gospel of John apropos this; you know the distinction I’m trying to make here between Jesus as the Way and the proper beliefs and behaviors of Christians as the Way.) Then you have Chaim and Akiva. Does anyone seriously doubt where they stand vis-a-vis God? Then Aura and Matt, and a couple of others. Then David and several other people whose rational conscience does not allow them to put their trust in some mythical construct that does not fit their understanding of what the world around them is like. I honor their disbelief.
J.B. Phillips once wrote a book entitled Your God Is Too Small in which he attacked several misapprehensions of what God must be like, e.g., the petty tyrant, the lazy watchmaker, etc. My God is big enough to have love in his heart for all these people, and not to incontinently condemn a one of them.
I always thought My God Can Beat Up Your God would make a great book title.
Smilingjaws wrote:
Yes, I see what you’re getting at. However, the word “Mormon” is not the official name of my church. If another church tried to call itself “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,” my church would strenuously object (and rightly so), and perhaps even take legal action.
Other Christian churches do not hold the trademark to the word “Christian” to describe their churches. And if you want to know the truth, the LDS church believes that all other Christian churches, although they possess some truth, are essentially apostate Christians with no authority from God to act in His name. Yet we still are willing to call them “Christians.” Too bad they don’t extend the same courtesy to us as we do to them, huh?
The LDS church is based entirely on Jesus Christ. He is the center of it, He stands at its head, and its doctrine comes directly from Him. Why don’t you call your religion “satan worshipers” instead of “Christians”? It would make as much sense as making Mormons call themselves anything other than Christian.
Sorry to disappoint you, Jaws, but Mormons are Christians, and as hard as you try to discredit our Christian beliefs, you will never succeed. We will always be Christians, whether or not some silly world council of apostate Christian churches admits us or not.