And now the Libs lose it, too...?

Politics & Elections
1

Two episodes, now, of left-wing protesters going overboard in just the last few days:

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4315151-pro-palestinian-protesters-enter-fox-news-building/
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/4314983-dingell-democrat-dnc-protests-rattled-me-more-than-january-6/

Now I’ve argued quite a bit that humans in state X aren’t so different from state Y and if you’re seeing them going crazy in one region then there’s no particular reason to think they’re not liable to do the same in another, given the right nudge. If you see half of the country backing a crook and burying their head in the sand about it, there’s no reason to think the other half wouldn’t as well, under the right circumstances. That your particular segment might be well behaved in a particular moment doesn’t make them a different biological species from those other people.

I’d just like to advance the idea again that the cure to all of this is NOT to get your own party into power, not to counter-gerrymander, nor otherwise to claim territory back from those baddies for your own side. Your side can be the same as that side and it’s just luck that it’s not. The solution is and always will be to set up systems that encourage diligent, trustworthy, and ordinary people to run for office, allow them to succeed against populists and schmoozers, and empower them to advance unpopular policy. Things like the electoral college, superdelegates, etc. are a goodness and strengthening and improving those systems is what prevents the political madness of the majorities.

2

There have always been extreme voices on the left. But the Democratic party is not behind them, or being led by them. The comparison is weak - the existence of extremists is not comparable to a party captured and led by them.

3

It could, If you find that the majority of the politicians of a party are in favor of what you are pointing out here.

So far, it’s a lot of Republicans the ones who have demonstrated support of the January 6th insurrection or deny the elections results.

4

Have you watched the actual video that goes along with it? To compare it to January 6th is a joke.

5

In what way was the Fox News thing this morning, “Left-wing protestors going overboard”?

30 or so pro-Palestine protestors did some chanting, held up signs, and were arrested. Is pro-Palestine left wing? Is chanting and holding signs overboard?

6

More than a modicum of truth to that. In New York, the Democratic Party kneecapped all the smaller parties, making it damn near impossible for us to ever get on the ballot again. Not because the Green Party or Democratic Socialists or Libertarians or whatever were a threat to democracy. But just because they could. Consolidation of power for no defensible other purpose. Hey, I don’t want to see the Republicans ascendant, either, but treating everyone who isn’t on your team as The Enemy isn’t the best way to ensure the most inclusive and democratic (lower case “d”) process possible, ya know??

7

The people who are protesting Israel’s attack on Gaza are mostly from the left, but that doesn’t mean they represent a unified leftist point of view. The left-ish people I know decry both Hamas and Israel’s response, both. They see the moral dangers of inflaming anti-semitism and also anti-islamic sentiments, and are appalled at the murder of civilians on both sides. That’s the left I know. But they are all aging leftists and have seen too much.

8

I think this sort of comparison is – at the moment – fatally flawed.

Wherever you come down on Israel-Hamas, it’s a situation that is horrifyingly real.

If January 6th is ‘the other side,’ we must never forget that they were tilting at (Trump-created, cancer-causing, whale-killing, total bullshit) windmills.

A cohort of ‘liberals’ with strong feelings about a war really doesn’t bear comparison to a bunch of truly lost and unfortunate souls horribly abused by a demagogue.

IMHO.

9

Did I miss something?

Did Joe Biden speak at this protest and urge the protesters “to storm the building and give those traitors what they deserve?” Did he tell them that the rules don’t apply anymore?

Did a whole bunch of Democratic congressman urge all Democrats to join the protests? Did they publicly praise the protesters as heroes?

There were 81 million people that voted Democratic in the last Presidential election. There were 150 people at this protest. AFAICT, none of those people hold public office or have a substantial public following. Yet, you think they represent the “libs”?

Are you seriously playing the both sides card? Really?

Republican politicians and public influencers are constantly trying to push their supporters into violence, and it works. Hundreds of their followers committed or contributed to the January 6th violence. Unhinged Trump supporters killed the son of federal Judge Esther Salas, attempted to murder Nancy Pelosi’s husband and plotted the kidnap and murder of the Michigan governor. Even worse, private citizens like election workers, and school and healthcare workers have been threatened with violence for doing their jobs.

The response from Republican politicians to these acts is not sympathy or horror, but a combination of laughter, denial and victim blaming.

The problem isn’t that there are individuals of all political stripes willing to commit violence. The problem is the politicians and high profile influencers that encourage them, and those are only found on one side.

When Democratic politicians and public influencers encourage holding their opponents accountable for their misdeeds, they advocate the appropriate use of the legal process, not extra-judicial self- help and violence.

For the record, I dislike violence in far left protests as much as I dislike violence in far right protests, although I haven’t seen much evidence that the far left crowd consider themselves to be Democrats or that they support Democratic politicians - they tend to fall into the “they’re all the same it doesn’t matter” club. The political continuum has always been practically a circle, and there isn’t a lot of distance between far left and far right, they disagree on some things but are bound by a dislike of government and centrism and a propensity for violence.

Also, there seems to be this assumption in the media that all anti-Israel protesters are left wing. I’ll agree that they skew left, but there’s a significant portion of the far right crowd that’s highly anti-Semitic and I’ve seen a buttload of right wing anti-Israel accounts from the Groyper trolls and other right wingers.

10

Is this true? Got a cite? Were the 30 or so protestors at Fox News HQ from the left?

11

Thank you Ann Hedonia. I’ve been trying to figure out just what to say and you said it wonderfully.

12

I don’t understand how “Palestinian” in any way equates to “Left”. In fact, they are angry at our Liberal president for supporting Israel. In today’s political world, I’m definitely “Left”, but I’m staunchly pro Israel.

13

Right, Look at Project 2025, a set up for a fascist government if trump wins.

Good. And yes, The Green party et al has proven itself to be a threat to democracy. The 3rd party people stole enuf votes from Hillary to put trump in, and trump is proven to be a threat to Democracy. And looks like Jill Stein will try again to put trump in the oval office.

No, no, and no.

That is what the Kremlin currently pushes in their propaganda.

14

FWIW, a recent poll shows 58% of Democrats vs. 18% of Republicans say Israel went too far.

15

So, mostly dems, a lot of Indys and a solid handful of Republicans. Hardly a part of the Democratic party platform.

16

Did I say it is?

17

Captured and led by them, no. That does tend to describe the Republican party and that is a significant difference: Republicans, since even before the incredible ascension of Trumpian demagoguery, have embraced and institutionalized lunacy. But let’s not overlook the lunacy on our side, which does fortunately manifest in much smaller numbers, but they’re not just random loons on the street – some are elected officials.

Perhaps not. But many far-left loons do. For instance, AOC and "The Squad, some of whose members have been accused of anti-semitism, and which includes notable loons like Rep. Ayanna Pressley (D-MA) tweeting things like “cancel rent”, “cancel mortgage” and Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-MI) tweeting "no more policing, incarceration or militarization”. And then we have college students at some Ivy Leagues protesting against Israel and in favour of Hamas and the Palestinians, which have pissed off wealthy donors so much that it’s having an impact on their endowments, most notably at Harvard and Columbia.

Maybe some of us old leftie social democrats are just getting old and stodgy, but I don’t think it’s that. I think there are some real nutbars on the far left, and that’s not even getting into the currently fashionable hypersensitivities about language that pervades the far left.

Again, I grant you that the far right is almost immeasurably worse in every way, but let’s not pretend that our side doesn’t have its faults and its share of at least a few loons.

18

If one wished to prevent Green or Socialist or whatever voters from handing the election to the Republicans and wanted to do so in a democratic and nonshitty way, one could embrace ranked choice voting. Let the folks who want to vote Green do so… as their first ranked choice… and after the candidate at the bottom of the heap is eliminated, all the folks who had that candidate as their first choice have their vote moved to their second choice. For folks voting Green, that would likely be the Democratic Party candidate.

On the conservative side of the field, it would enable folks who really don’t want one of them damn libbbeerals in office to cast their first-choice ballot for the Libertarians and only as a second choice fallback opt for the Republican.

And people who want to vote for whoever the No Labels pseudo-party nominates could do so and not have it detract from either of the main parties.

But the main two parties don’t want to embrace ranked choice because it encourages people to take smaller parties seriously if they can vote for them without worrying about “throwing their vote away” or “helping the other side”.

I’m not embracing a “both sides do it” viewpoint of the current political landscape, mind you. In fact I posted about that on FB this morning:

19

Violent clash at DNC headquarters sparks concern over convention security

I post this as relevant to the thread, not to agree with my link’s perspective. The Democratic convention is scheduled for August (GOP July). It is unlikely Gaza will be such a focal point in U.S. news then. It will not be similar, from the standpoint of American swing voters, to a situation where hundreds of American soldiers were dying monthly in the Vietnam War. Will there be protests? Yes, and Gaza will be one subject among others. Probably there will be protesters from both the right and left, however defined, and Biden/Harris will seem reasonable in comparison.

20

You sure picked a hell of a week to both sides violence.