Right; we agree in this insofar as the Black Thornberries are concerned. I was just approaching it as if we were assuming the contract was magically legit and, therefore, an attempt to remove Angel from Shansu. Angel’s motivation in signing the document (whether real or not–the document, that is), though, doesn’t, unfortunately, affect his Pinnochio Prophecy. (Unless they went back to rewrite that scene and he’s given his humanity back as a reward for being selfless. But that’s just silly–or the way I’m envisioning it would be silly. :))
I know which exchange to which you are referring:
… and normally I think that such canon, established early-on, would be nearly indisputable. Unfortunately, ME doesn’t stick with all of the early canon; take, as an example, the Master referring to himself having a soul when he was getting into the Harvest ritual with Luke:
And we all know that vampires don’t have souls. Except Angel. And Spike. Moreover, every plot-centric prophecy we’ve seen since then has been unavoidable. Working off the assumption that Angel is the vampire to which they refer in Shansu (especially when nothing has strictly established otherwise), I’m not sure why this prophecy would be any different.
Not to mention the fact that the closest thing Spike’s had to a meaningless shag that I can think of was his relationship with Harm.
He was with Dru when he first appeared. Then she dumped him and he hooked up with Harm. Then he ditched her, and as far as I can tell, went without until he finally managed to hook up with Buf.
Since that ended, the only time I can think of he’s had sex was with Harm just after he became corporeal, but - a) that was with Harmony, and they DID have a semi-serious thing going for a while, and b) circumstances weren’t quite normal.
No doubt I’ve missed a shag-for-the-sake-of-shagging or two, but they’re far less a defining point of his character than the hopeless romantic poet.
I thought this was the best possible resolution to the whole Shanshu thing they could have come up with. Partially because I always felt that particular plot point was very, very weak. Why? Because Angel already had a shot at being human, and passed it up because he was a more effective hero as a vampire than as a mortal. So why is he suddenly so thrilled (later in the very same season) that there’s a prophecy saying he’ll get something he already passed on? The only thing I can think of that makes any sense is that he assumed that, in fulfilling the shanshu prophecy, he’d somehow defeat evil: that after picking his side on the apocalypse, the world wouldn’t need a champion anymore, and he could retire. But the entire thrust of this season is that heroes never get to retire: not until they die, and often, not even then. Signing that document is nothing more than reaffirming a decision he made more than four years ago: that if being a vampire means he can help more people, then he’ll be a vampire until the day he gets dusted. Which is also, incidentally, why the ending was so perfect, because it tells you exactly what the MoG do after the series ends: they keep fighting, until they die. Maybe not in that particular ally at that particular time, but no matter what happens, they’ll keep picking fights with evil until they pick one they can’t win.
Man, that episode was awesome. A million times better than the Buffy finale.
I won’t rehash what others have said, but I will note that until I came here, it never even occured to me to think of the ending as a cliffhanger. As soon as the show ended I assumed that they would all fight for about five minutes and then die (aside from being a buttload of demons there, there was at least one dragon and a giant in the background, and that’s probably not even close to everything the senior partners could throw at them, assuming they didn’t just decide to annhilate them with lightning bolts or something if they killed too many demons). In fact, I imagine that what Angel said would happen to them at the end of the second-to-last episode is what’s happening to them now - that is, I imagine not a one of them is having a very happy time in the afterlife. And that’s the way it should have ended, I think.
In fact, I will go on record now as saying that I hope there isn’t ever a movie featuring Angel, because I think his fate in this episode was perfect. As much as I like all of the characters (and I’ve even come to like Spike some this season), I really don’t want to see any of them ever again.
Angel signing away on his prophecy was, for me, one of the most powerful moments of the show, too. At first I had thoughts like some have along the lines of “well, since he signed ‘Angel’, there’ll be some loophole.” But that’s what I like about this episode so much - it didn’t compromise, and it didn’t go out of its way to tack on sappy endings to anyone’s character.
And on a totally superficial level, Adam Baldwin should not shave his chest.
Oh, and now that the series has ended, and these threads will be no more, I suppose this would be the most pointless time to ask:
What’s MoG? At one point, Angel’s equivalent to the “Scoobie Gang” moniker was the “Fang Gang”, but I guess that fell out at some point, and with SDMB’s four letter search requirement I’m having a hard time finding an explanation for it… Minions of Gozer? Mounds of Gouda?
English majors seem to make up quite a bit of the viewing audience; in fact, Buffy and Angel appealed to auntie em and myself for that very reason. Last year, when auntie em was interviewing for a position at a local university, she mentioned to two of her interviewers (each of whom, I believe, had a Master’s in English) that she loved Buffy for the rich subtext. On that point of pop-culture, they all related very well. The calls for papers I see for Buffy scholarship are numerous.
Augh. It’s been hours and hours, and I still can’t sleep because I’m rerunning the finale in my head over and over again.
Damn you Whedon for making me care. Damn you!!! Do you realize that now the only shows with characters I really care about are Arrested Development and Malcolm in the Middle? Nothing else on the tube is worth searching for (except 24, but I don’t really care about anyone there, I just like watching the ultimate train wreck). Damn you!
But at least I have ripped the Angel theme music into iTunes, and Spike’s poem too, so at least that’ll pop up time and again without warning. If I could just get Anya’s song from S.7, I’d be happy. And I’ve been hoarding the final episode of Firefly, with Whedon’s commentary, so I’ve got that to look forward too. And maybe someday I’ll be rich and can buy all 8 years of Whedon TV…
I did the same exact thing. I held off on watching the eps of Firefly that weren’t aired because I hated so much the idea that after I watched it there wouldn’t be any more. Joss is the only TV person who’s ever inspired that sort of feeling in me. Where do I sign up for the cult?
Senior Partner appears in the body, Angel kills the body. I’m not saying that the SP in question was severely hindered by this fact, as its essence probably fled back to its home dimension, but nevertheless, I consider it a legitimate SP kill. So that’s why I use my particular choice of words in asking which one of the SPs he killed.
Hey Barbarian, I have Anya’s S7 song on mp3. Email me if you’d like it…I think my address is in my profile. Also, I’m doing the same thing with Firefly.
This almost wins me over. I admit there is a lot of character logic in the final ending. But for this sort of art, I think there is a case for owing something to the audience. I remember in an interview with the author of A Chorus Line, he said that the ex-star would never have gotten the job in real life, and that was how he was going to end it until a friend told him, you have to give the audience a tomorrow.
Yes, this is essentially where they have been going the entire time, and it makes sense that they finally get there, but…I want a tomorrow. I want to think they have some happiness ahead of them, even if it will inevitably finally come to this.
What can I say? I liked the Buffy ending a lot, sentimental fool that I am. But this one sure had some great moments.
I loved the Buffy ending, for the most part, but the Buffy ending fit with the characters’ evolution over time. They wanted to fight the good fight, yet retain normal (relatively normal, anyway) lives as best as they could. It was a central theme in every season, it was the drama that drove the characters, it was the link between most every metaphor in the series. The ending worked perfectly for that.
Angel & Co, however, have rarely focused on the normal life stuff. With few exceptions (early Season 1 Cordy, Angel’s glee at being a dad), Angel the series has been about sacrificing one’s own desires to fight the good fight, including the desire for revenge. Character relationships in Buffy fell apart because that’s what writers like to do for drama, but relationships in Angel never worked because they got in the way of the fight (Wes’s jealousy for Fred/Gunn, for example).
The close of the series’s arc, no matter how rushed, certainly drove the characters to embrace the idea of giving up everything to fight the good fight. In that case, all that remains is the fight, and in this way the ending was really, I think, the only thing that could do the show justice.
Heh, I hated the Buffy ending so much that I haven’t watched a single ep of BtVS since then…so I guess it’s been a year. I’ve been getting my Joss fix from AtS.
I want to address one thing about the final battle though it was mentioned awhile back. The Black Thorn was the SP reps on Earth, and W&H was the organization through which they accomplished everything. Seperately, they were just demons with moderate power, as Lindsay pointed out, I believe. However, with the combined forces of a law firm (which they pretty much directed) they were unstoppable. They had endless influence, money, and power, and it was all funnelled through W&H. Angel was in reality working for them, and we see that throughout the season because they always got what they wanted.
W&H the LA Branch served only one purpose, and that was to serve the needs of the Black Thorn and indirectly, the SP. Destroying W&H wouldn’t have been enough–it wasn’t last year when The Beast destroyed it–and it was simply impossible to destroy the SP themselves–and so they had to go for the Black Thorn.
As for the signing away the Shanshu thing–I agree with whoever said he signed it away 4 years ago. I don’t think it was a weak plotpoint at all. I think Angel struggled with the problem of doing good for the sake of good or doing good for the sake of a reward. throughout the series. Spike struggled with the same dilemna. How does an essentially evil and selfish creature become good? Get a soul? That’ll take care of the evil part, but what about the selfish part? I think Spike’s refusal to contact Buffy and insisting he stay and fight with Angel and Angel signing away the Shanshu both demonstrate that they solved that dilemna for themselves.
And he had to sign it “Angel”. He’s not Angelus and he’s not Liam. The man sitting in that room, signing that paper, making that decision was Angel. His name and his identity. The signature was legit.
I’m extremely satisfied with the finale. I think it’s probably one of the most perfect hours of television in the history of television. i was crying a lot, but that’s because they were all so beautiful and wonderful and it was so sad. I never expected Angel to get a happy ending, because that’s not what Angel gets. AtS was likened, by Joss, to a show about an alcoholic. You don’t wake up one day and you’re suddenly not an alcoholic anymore. Angel wasn’t going to wake up one day and be happy–he was after all, one of history’s greatest monsters.
Spike was never going to get a happy ending either. That’s just the way it is, and I have fanfic to deal with that.
I was wondering if they’d make Angel a real tragedy and I thought maybe Joss wouldn’t have the balls. I’m glad to see he did.
That wasn’t a false prophecy. No more than the prophecy in Prophecy Girl was false. Yeah, it was written by Sajhan, but somebody has to write prophecies. Who do you suppose writes them? Angel killed Connor. He slit his throat at the end of 4.22 Home with a big ol’ knife.
Nah, he didn’t sign Shansu away in the first season, he just willingly gave up his humanity to save Buffy for that one time. The Oracles made it clear that him being human for the evil soldiers coming along would mean that Buffy would lose her life. I don’t think you can equivocate the two: asking the Oracles to take back the Mohra demon’s “gift” of life was simply so that Buffy wouldn’t die. Angel knew what would happen that one time. On the other hand, he had no foresight as to what would happen if he Shansued. Angel may reject Shansu for many reasons, but I don’t think you can say he would have done so off of the basis of what happened with the Mohra demon in I Will Remember You. For that to happen, Angel would have to know that someone he cared about would die if he wasn’t a vampire.
Ultimately, though, it isn’t about what Angel the character wants when it comes to Shansu; as I said before, he could accept it or reject it as long as they at least dealt with it. I’m just whining about the near-exclusion of Shansu, and the way they–in my opinion–just off-handedly ignored it. Angel accepting the prophecy or not, at least let it come to a point of fulfillment.
… I could see where the near-exclusion of Shansu in this last episode would have made sense, because they’d have future seasons to continue on and deal with it.
I do agree with you on Angel signing his name in full faith, and it not being some pseudonym-switcheroo for when–and if–it came time to collect on the contract.
I’m not sure, however, that I agree the last episode is all that of a tragedy. Since we know he planned a Season 6, and since we know that future movies are a possibility, it’s not much of a leap to assume at least he survived. I think Angel should end in a tragedy, but for me, the tragedy would be best served if he was staked. Possibly even by a Slayer. (Yeah, even that Slayer.)
I never took that as a fulfillment of Sajhan’s prophecy. The real prophecy was that Connor would kill Sajhan–all Sajhan did was change the words around so that it looked like Angel would kill Connor. Are you saying that when Sajhan manipulated the original prophecy, that it created a new one? If so, I don’t agree. Angel killing Connor is just Angel killing Connor; I’m not sure how it would be fulfilling a prophecy that was never a prophecy in the first place.
And who writes prophecies? As in origination? My guess would be Gods, Powers, full demons, etc… Probably not Sajhan.
