Sahjann did everything he could to alter copies of the prophecy, so that the first time they encountered it, it was interpreted as Angel would kill his son-- but when Wes talked to the mystic hamburger, he was told Angel would devour his son-- a key difference.
I was talking about the part where you were trying to rationalize that the ‘killing the son’ prophecy came true in a way. You don’t need to do that, because it wasn’t a real prophecy.
Wes’s inquiries regarding the fake did lead him to learn from the Loa that Angel would Devour his son, which did come true after a fashion, but it has nothing to do with the fake prophecy.
In regards to Shanshu:
Angel signed it away because ultimately it was a selfish pursuit. As someone else put it, he wasn’t fighting for a REWARD anymore.
I sort of saw it as Angel giving a gift to Spike.
And in the alley this change of status was evident.
It’s kind of like… if on The Fugitive’s last episode Dr. Kimble had the opportunity to catch the one arm man OR help a family in need. He’d help the family in need. That’s what the show was really about. Helping people. The hunt for the one armed man was just the engine that drove the train.
And in my opinion if you liked the episode but hated the ending… You didn’t really get the episode. The theme was the fight not the victory (or defeat). Showing the end of the battle either way was not important.
The more I think about this episode, the more I think it was as near to perfect as could be hoped, and in many ways exceeded my expectations. I didn’t remember the “scenes for next week’s Angel” and I didn’t watch the opening preview, so Lorne killing Lindsay was an excellent surprise for me that I did not see coming. I remember thinking, even, “So, er, what is Lorne there for?” So perfect. Lindsay always had such a high opinion of himself. And Lorne is all, “You’re not part of the solution.” Wonderful. Lindsay had his opportunity at least twice, and each time took the left hand path.
If ever there could have been a more fitting wrap-up to Spike than his sacrifice in BtVS finale, last night was it. Spike rules, and that was absolutely what his character deserved. Wonderful.
Wesley… yeah, I cried. Wes is a great character, I think one of the top three Buffyverse characters, and I think I should have known he’d die last night. That was exactly where his character was heading. He had nothing left in him.
Illyria was awesome. I fell in love with her character very quickly, it grew 1000-fold when Fred’s parents showed up and she switched personas, and last night just made me feel even better about her. It is a shame Fred qua Fred is so decimated, but Illyria is cool as hell, too. Her revenge for Wes was great.
Harmony… heh! What more can be said.
But yeah, I think this really thematically worked as a season and series finale. Over the seasons, one thing Angel has been working to accept is how to be good without the carrot dangling over him that the Shanshu prophecy represented. His Season2 descent into darkness showed him how it wasn’t about doing good for a reason, “If there’s no great point to all of this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do.” He knows it, somewhere inside, but the Shanshu prophecy would always be there. I think the signature snippit was a little silly, but it was thematically complete with Angel’s evolution over the years from pure evil, to ambiguously good, to pathetic, to helping the heroes, to becoming the hero. All along the way there were little carrots in one form or another, and a lot of his struggles have been related to them. Hell, if it weren’t for the Shanshu carrot he wouldn’t even be where he was. Whereas Buffy’s plight was always mostly direct (trying to just have a normal life in the face of apparently limitless evil), Angel’s has always been an internal struggle to do what is right, and to find out why one should even bother doing what’s right in the face of apparently limitless evil.
In this way, the show is very closed thematically, even if the story is still open.
I am immensely satisfied.
I still don't know what to think. I am a big fan of heroic epics, and legendary endings. For some reason this sinply didn't work for me. It just didn't "feel" right.
One rason that I think was that this really didn't have the normal Weldon chance to build. I know that the suits had decreed that this season should have less of a running story line, and more "stand alone" episodes. In other word they are insulting the intellegence of the viewers, we simply arn't smart enough to figure out a running plotline, or to come in in the middle of one and have any interest in the show. Perhaps because network suits themselves have the IQs clams, they assume that everyone esle does to.
The "goodbye from you friends at WB" was one of the most incincere things I have ever seen on television.
The result of this is rather than spending an entire season building to this climax, we get a hurried tacked on, ending.FUEGO!
I need to watch it again.
In another messageboard, someone had an interesting take on Lorne’s assassination:
What if he WASN’T acting under Angel’s orders? What if he was sent along with Lindsay either as actual backup (since Lindsay was probably the weakest member of the group except for maybe Gunn) or as insurance (in case Lindsay turned traitor)? In that scenario, Lorne’s assassination would be a repudiation of Angel’s philosophy: whereas Angel has reconciled himself to working with villains in order to accomplish good, Lorne believes that can never be for the best, and so he took the unprecedented step of killing Lindsay because he personally believed Lindsay’s survival would end up harming more people.
I have no idea whether this interpretation holds up, but I kinda like it.
Daniel
No, the complaint wasn’t how the battle turned out (or who won or who lost), the complaint was that Shansu was such a major theme for so long, it’s fairly indecent that they managed to just brush it aside without giving it any real consideration. Personally, I would have been dandy if Shansu had come about and Angel, for whatever reason, and in whatever way, decided to reject it. I would have been fine if he decided to accept it. Either way, at least they would have fully dealt with it–a theme that they had introduced early on; a theme that they had kept going for all of these years; a theme that was central to the show after it was revealed. Instead, they pretty much shooed it off in the corner as if it never really mattered.
And I think you’re incorrect in saying that “the theme” was the fight. A theme, sure; the theme, no. You could make the argument that it was the major theme for the season, but I feel a better argument could be made that the two most important themes for the series was Angel’s personal redemption and Shansu (which may or may not have tied in together).
I don’t necessarily disagree with that, actually. My problem simply lies with the fact that ME has traditionally treated legitimate prophecies (e.g., anything that wasn’t manipulated by Sahjahn) very well when it comes to continuity: they come to pass. Maybe not in the way that the viewer or characters expected, but at least there’s fruition. This time, however, the prophecy is just mentioned in a “Here, sign this” scene. They make the prophecy so important and so central that when it comes time to end the series, they just–as you mentioned–blithely remove it from consideration? That smells more like a hack writing job than rich subtext… especially, as I mentioned, when we take into consideration how they’ve traditionally treated prophecies.
In addition to what I’ve said, earlier, about what I liked about the show: I loved what they did with Harmony. I enjoyed that they left a vampire to be evil (even if evil in a silly way); that they didn’t try to redeem her. And the recommendation being in her desk? Classic.
I guess I see it differently. The prophecy isn’t repudiated by what Angel did. It’s still going to come to pass. What Angel did was to remove himself from fate’s control: he guaranteed that he wouldn’t be the one referred to by the prophecy.
And remember, the prophecy offered what was his ultimate reward. As you said, it offered what he’s been jonesing for for the last many years. Here, he decided that redemption didn’t come in restoring his humanity, but in giving it up for a greater cause. He made the ultimate sacrifice, and was thereby redeemed.
The prophecy goes on, only without Angel to fulfill it.
Daniel
Unless my memory is exceptionally poor, a great number of people are going off the assumption that it was this apocalypse and this vampire (Angel) that the prophecy referred to–though I don’t recall that there was actual evidence in the text to drive that conclusion. This was simply how WR&H and Wes et al interpreted it. Prophecies are tricky things.
Is there some pressing reason to assume that the prophecy must refer to this vampire at this time?
I think they should have staked her in some humorous way. I’m thinking she gets her recommendation and leaves, then comes back “I forgot my lipstick” and one of the guys had just been thrown across the room and into a wall next to her, sending shards of wood flying. She looks down for a second at the shard in her chest and whines “It’s not fair!”(perhaps with a little stomp of the foot) and then dusts.
Enjoy,
Steven
Left Hand of Dorkness and erislover: It may very well be that Angel isn’t the vampire to whom Shansu refers, but I’m hesitant to think that way. I understand what you mean by Angel removing himself from the equation, LHoD, but it seems to me that prophecy in the Buffyverse doesn’t work like that; one doesn’t succesfully manipulate prophecy, one gets manipulated by prophecy. (Maybe not manipulated by the prophecy as if it has its own will, but definitely by the power behind the prophecy.) So, if the prophecy does indeed refer to Angel, I don’t think he’d be able to remove himself from it as easily as signing a contract–no matter that the Senior Partners were behind that contract.
Which brings me to what erislover asked: No, nothing mentions Angel by name in the prophecy, but I feel it’s a stretch to attribute the “vampire with a soul” line to anyone but Angel. Can it refer to Spike? Maybe. But Spike was just an add-in to retain and grow viewer numbers; I’m not sure he was ever seriously in the running for fulfillment of that prophecy. Yet, even if he was, and depending on how they wrote it… I’d be okay with that. Even if Shansu doesn’t refer to either Spike or Angel, I’d be okay–as long as they wrote it well.
But I don’t feel that they wrote away Shansu well at all.
I thought of this, but when Angel told Eve that Lindsey wasn’t coming back I knew for sure that Angel ordered it.
As far as the Shanshu prophecy goes, it’s not like the prophecy doesn’t still stand, it’s just that Angel signed away the possibility of it applying to him. This simply means that it will be Spike or a future ensouled vampire who eventually gets “shanshu’d” (or Conner is the fulfillment if you prefer that interpretation).
Well, we’re talking about two different things here:
- Does Angel’s motivation in signing the document make sense? I think we all agree it does.
- Could he actually have manipulated prophecy like that? Maybe so, maybe not. It actually doesn’t matter.
For all we know, the Circle of Thorns had their administrative assistant whip up a form prophecy-doohickey from a template, slapped in a few words about Xanshu, added some clip-art arcane symbols, and printed it out on partchment. It may be as genuine as a three-dollar bill.
They didn’t care about whether Angel actually DID sign away his reward; all they cared about was whether he was WILLING to do so.
Angel is no expert in prophecy. He may not have known whether the document he was signing was legit. His willingness to sign it was all that mattered.
Daniel
Ah, what the hell. I’ll comment.
Nice to know that I’m not the only one who felt optomistic about the MoG’s (or, at least what’s left of them) chances of surviving this, and without the deus ex machina of a buncha Slayers suddenly showing up. As I said, I sort of wrote them out of it in a fanfic. Also, this is the first time I’ve been disappointed by an episode after being spoiled (I’m probably behind only pepperlandgirl as being the biggest spoiler whore on the board), but I was disappointed in a good way. When I saw the demon army and the dragon marching/flying toward them, I actually thought they had a chance. I was expecting far worse odds. Like I said before, four people, three of whom are superhuman, I think could stand a chance against at least a couple of hundred demons if they were working in a fairly narrow space, like that alley. If they were in a wide-open space, or being attacked from both sides, I would have given it to the demon army, but it looked like they were only able to march three abreast in that space.
I really, really loved Spike’s poetry reading. And that scene was soooooooo Spike. Go to a biker bar, get hammered, then get on stage and recite bad poetry, one hand draped over the mike stand clutching a glass of beer. If that was the last time I ever saw him, it would have been perfect.
The part where Angel signed the Shanshu away bothered me, though. I have some experience with fountain pens, just had to take one in for repairs as a matter of fact, and I can tell you that there is no way you could drive a fountain pen through a person’s hand and have it end up hitting a hard surface like a table top and not end up with a severely bent nib. I didn’t let that ruin the episode for me, though.
When Lorne was giving his speech to Lindsey, I was kind of wondering if this was something he was doing on his own because he just didn’t trust the guy, or if he was acting under Angel’s orders. Angel’s “Lindsey won’t be coming for you” comment to Eve made it clear that he had ordered Lindsey’s death.
The Illyria/Fred moment was precious. I’ve been thinking all along that Illyria was developing some very real warm fuzzies toward Wesley, and this just confirmed it for me. I think the tears were real. Not physically real, but the emotion behind them was genuine.
My edited comments brought from another thread:
I’m still unclear why Lindsey had to be killed. In S.1 he’s a somewhat noble character, no? He keeps returning but I never thought of him as being unredeemable. After all, he did choose to fight against the SP knowing it would probably lead to his death. Seems kinda cruel to kill him. Which leads me to…
I think Boreanaz is really hot, but I must say whatshisname (Lindsey) made my heart go pitter-patter with his sword play. He’s such a cool character.
Ahhh, Wesley died in the arms of his sweetie-pie.
Too bad Cordy couldn’t have been there in the end somehow. Fred didn’t come on board until the end of S.2, but Cordy missed both BtVS and AtS finales. RATS.
The finale just wasn’t complete without the arch nemesis, Lilah. So many great female characters and we’re left with Illyria and stupid Eve.
Nice to see Conner. Wasn’t expecting that. I actually liked him last night, which was a first.
So, they succeeded in killing the entire ring? They’re gooood. But if killing the SP meant that they’d unleash an apocalyptic team of demons and dragons, weren’t they doing more harm than good? Surely the demons weren’t just hunting Angel and his posse…? Was this supposed to be the end of the world?
Harmony betrayed Angel, but how can you hate her?
Not ONE mention of Buffy! Ha!
It’s official. Whedon has nothing on t.v. anymore. Yet “America’s Worst Singer” somehow gets the blessing of TPTB at WB. It boggles the mind.
Thanks for all the post-episode threads, folks. They’ve been fun.
Well, I have some experience with office furniture, and I can tell you (at least I desperately hope I can tell you) that there is no way you could press a button on a Thinkpad and make an office chair chop someone’s head off. But when you’re a very rich and very evil organization, you can have custom equipment built :).
Given the number of contracts-signed-in-blood that the Circle probably deals in, they commissioned a special reinforced knifey fountain pen for just that purpose.
Daniel
Angel didn’t kill an SP. He killed a demon by which the SP was manifesting itself in our dimension.
ME establishes the possibility of successfully manipulating prophecy all the way back in “Prophecy Girl.” Giles and Angel are reviewing the Codex and Giles talks about how Buffy has successfully thwarted prophecy time and again.
[quotePunditLisa]
So, they succeeded in killing the entire ring? They’re gooood. But if killing the SP meant that they’d unleash an apocalyptic team of demons and dragons, weren’t they doing more harm than good?
[/quote]
The Circle wasn’t the SP. They were agents of the SP on Earth. There was also establishing dialog that the Arch-Duke had tens of thousands of demons at his disposal, so they could’ve been unleashed at any point anyway. Angel and company just changed the timetable.
Hmm. I’d forgotten the Archduke’s disposable army, but I’ll take a crack at it.
In medieval times, knights were honor bound to serve their leige lord, not the king. So it sometimes happened that if a liege lord bit the big one in battle, his knights would simply go home. Not sure how common an occurrance it was, but…
Figure, the Archduke (leige lord) is dead. The mass of his army might not have any particular loyalty to the SP’s, and thus a relatively few of them would think it was worth their while to go into battle against the MoG when the Circle of the Black Thorn was wiped out, which means that the SP’s really wouln’t have that much in the way of means to punish disloyalty, being non-corporeal and living on another plane of existance and all.
Plus, and I’m going out on a limb here, but I think it’s a fairly strong limb, I do think it’s possible, if not entirely probable, that by killing off the higher ranking demons, the army could be induced to do itself in. I mean, really, a few hundred against four? The demons next highest in rank would want to seize the opportunity to try to take command of what was still a formidable fighting force, and once that happened, the MoG could simply get the hell out of the way and let them have at it.
Just sayin’.
EvilPhotoshop 8.0 is the industry standard for creating fake prophecy documents. If you need to manipulate people to do your bidding, there’s really no other choice besides EvilPhotoshop 8.0 if you want to do it right. Just ask our spokesghost, Sahjahn!
Sahjahn: I needed to ensure that I wasn’t killed by the child of two vampires. Thanks to EvilPhotoshop, I created a realistic-looking fake that had Wesley Wyndam-Pryce COMPLETELY fooled!