Yep. Even though some folks are insisting that B + P -> N is the operative condition, when we consider that ~B + P -> ~N, it’s clear to the most casual observer that it’s the “B”, and not the “P”, that is eliciting the “N”. The B is the sine qua non of the N, if you will.
This idea that “nigger” is somehow linked to a set of stereotypes is a complete red-herring if the set of stereotypes is simply “what racists think of black people.”
If I said “Yo, racist, tell me about black people” and they rattle off a set of stereotypes and I say “Yo, racist, tell me about niggers” and they rattle off THAT SAME SET, in what way is “nigger” a distinct set? It’s not. It’s a bullshit excuse for using a slur. “I don’t call ALL black people niggers, just the ones who act like niggers.”
It’s true that if someone is angry at me, they are more likely to insult me, and maybe call me a cunt. That doesn’t mean that there is a set of cunty actions. It means that whatever pisses you off about me becomes a way I am a cunt.
Which factors do you, Shodan, personally consider when thinking someone is a nigger? I don’t care what Chris Rock says in his comedy routine. He’s he and you are you. I’ve never interacted with him personally.
So, you, Shodan, have acknowledged believing [some] blacks to be niggers. So here’s a chance to clarify which group(s) of blacks you believe are or are not niggers.
But I’m not sure they would rattle off the same set.
If you said to someone who was reasonably racist “ok, picture that you’re walking down the street, and now a nigger approaches you” vs “ok, picture that you’re walking down the street, and a black guy approaches you”, do you think their mental images in the two cases are identical?
My instinct is that they are not the same, although I don’t have any real way to prove that. I take it you disagree?
I really do think it depends on the person. Growing up, I certainly knew people to whom every black person was a “nigger.” Hell, when I was growing up, for the first few years of my life (late70s/early 80s) I literally thought the word for a black person was “nigger.” That’s segregated Chicago for you. When Mayor Harold Washington died in 87, I clearly remember one of my seventh grade classmates saying “thank God that nigger is dead.” About a decade back I was photographing a wedding in Northwest Indiana when a Michael Jackson song came on, and the bride ran up to the DJ to say she didn’t want “to hear that nigger’s music.”
Do these people fit whatever “nigger” stereotype we’re talking about?
Yes, there are some people for whom there is some kind of delineation between “black person” and “nigger,” but there’s clearly many people for whom there is no such distinction.
I can’t get too worked up about this because I listen to Comedy Central radio almost every day and black comedians make a clear distinction between regular black people and “niggers” (following Chris Rock’s lead). These days, it isn’t a term that is applied to all black people. It just means black people (or sometimes rappers) that live on the fringes of society, maybe engage in gangster activity and refuse to be law-abiding citizens. It is a real subculture but normal black people are the ones most at risk of all because of their behavior. You can do all the hand-wringing you want but one of the most common causes of death for younger black men is other black men.
You may ask why there aren’t equivalent terms for other groups? There most certainly are. “White trash” (invented by black slaves ironically enough) is the most common one and I can promise you they exist as well and deserve the title. “Redneck” is another but there are derogatory terms for every single other ethnic group that has a sizable poor population. Sometimes it doesn’t even take that. Here in Boston area, we have the concept of “Euro-Trash”. Those are university students from wealthy families in Europe and the Middle East that act like they own the world but nobody outside of their social circle wants anything to do with them.
I don’t go around casually throwing out the term “nigger” either and never have but the expression in the OP doesn’t translate into anything that offensive to me. It isn’t referring to an entire group and is just an antiquated, old-school, colloquial expression that has already been long retired. For that matter, I can swear to you that I have never thrown a baby out with the bath water either and I will swear on the Bible under oath that is true.
Oh FFS. “Nigger” is a derogatory term that applies to black people. If you are a black person, you will get called nigger. If you live in certain parts of this country and you are of slightly dark complexion, you will get called nigger, because hey, you are probably black. Monstro is right. This thread wins “2017’s most ridiculous thread on the Dope”, which is saying something, because we had dude robert this year. Acknowledgements to Fotheringay-Phipps for drawing out the argument past all reason. I wasn’t sure whether you were arguing out of sheer spite or due to racist leanings. Thinking back on your past, I’ve decided it’s both. Stop feeding the fucking troll people.
Look, I really really hate feeling like I’m somehow arguing just for the sake of arguing, which is certainly not my intent, but… why is it only an absolute, and why are people so insistent that it be an absolute?
I mean, I’m strongly convinced that everything you’re saying is correct, BUT, also that some people who use the word “nigger” will do so MORE when the subject of their bigotry is acting or dressed a certain way. And I honestly don’t feel that by holding what seems to me to be an entirely uncontroversial position, I’m enabling racism, or apologizing for racism, or downplaying the history of racism, or anything. Now, it’s entirely possible that I’m wrong, since (fortunately) I don’t know many racists, at least of the old-school variety who would be likely to use the word “nigger”, but I can’t for the life of me understand why this argument is causing such vitriol.
I mean, let’s imagine for just a moment that I’m right, and that some non-trivial percentage of people who use the word nigger will do so MORE (albeit not exclusively) about people who dress or act certain ways, ways which line up with stereotypes (many of them negative) about black people. Well, so? Does that make their racism more acceptable? Does that make it less hateful when they say “nigger”? Does that somehow make their underlying racism rational?
I know this is a hijack, and I am not a mod, but we had a thread about this last month. Jonathan Chance and Bone are both of the opinion that taking a devil’s advocate position is permissible, at least in Great Debates, as long as you make it clear that you’re posting your position in order to stimulate discussion, and not to stir up shit.
I didn’t say any of those things. I think we agree that people who use the word “nigger” are racist.
Here’s what I’m trying to say. “Nigger” is racist. If a person is more likely to say it under certain circumstances, that’s irrelevant. It’s still racist, hateful, and not acceptable.
I think this larger debate in this thread about whether or not there’s a group of people who are more “nigger” somehow is strange, out of touch with the experience of being black, and possibly racist.
A thread that combines Shodan, Fotheringay-Phipps, and MaxTheVool’s collective reason and intellect in the same place is a rare and spectacular storm of tenacious stupidity. When combined their individual, highly specialized powers to annoy are increased exponentially.
The phrase nigger in the woodpile predates any other modern interpretation of the word and it most definitely means a person with dark skin. No other traits or behaviors are required to qualify.
Annie-Xmas’ comment about that comment indicates that she, like these other powerfully stupid people, believes there are some kind of qualifying behaviors or traits that make the term more deserved than others.
The fact that they think that, or that someone did an ill-conceived comedy routine about and later regretted it, isn’t evidence that there is any truth to the assertion. It’s just evidence that there are still people who think the same way those who coined the term thought.
A racist jackass old man in 1979 in Georgia called both me (White guy) and my companion (Korean woman) the n-word; her because she’s not White, and me because I dared to hold her hand in public. And if you think that attitude has died out since then, well, you haven’t been to Georgia recently.
That’s a trivial observation. Black people who exhibit the stereotypical traits are a subset of the larger group of black people. So obviously the correlation to the larger group is going to be greater. (Using “correlation” in the sense that I think you’re using it.)
The term does not generally apply to white people who exhibit those same traits, Robert Byrd notwithstanding.
No doubt you’d be happy to repeat the “original point”. Because you’d like to obscure what our point of contention has been in this discussion. Which is not the original point about there being no stereotype etc. But about whether you can prove this point from the fact that any black person has a non-zero chance of being called a “nigger”. This is a completely specious point and it’s understandable that you’d rather revert to repeating the “original point”, which whether correct or not at least has some logic to it.
Must have gone over your head. I addressed this in some detail, in the second paragraph that you quoted.
Note, however, that I’ve not made clear that I’m “posting [my] position in order to stimulate discussion”. And in fact I can tell you definitively that that’s not what I’m doing.
No, I pity the fool!
Regards,
Mr. S
An apology is due! I missed that dance move. I will, as penance, endorse your application to Dancing with the Stars, should you decide to apply.
Hint: It doesn’t matter which version you claim “no one” is saying, since Shodan said both. The fact that your [del]argument[/del] dance depends on that seems to have escaped you.
There’s no ambiguity about what I claimed nobody is saying. The ambiguity is in what Shodan said/meant.
I see it’s still over your head. Or at least you’re pretending it is.
Fine. Then fucking admit you were wrong and quit dancing. Quit blaming people for reading the plain text of what you wrote as something other than the plain text of what you wrote, especially when you admit there was no ambiguity about it.
“I was wrong” is a really easy thing to say when you’re wrong. So just say it, if you want to continue any kind of discussion.
Again - that can’t possibly be true, or there would be no difference between thinking of someone as a nigger and thinking of someone as a black person.
And if all you need to do is be black, why was the first couple in the hypothetical restaurant not thought of as “niggers” and the second couple was? All the first couple did was be black. B did not -> N for them. B + P did -> N for the second couple.
Regards,
Shodan
Because there is ambiguity in what Shodan said.
As I’ve noted, even if I was wrong about what Shodan said, it wouldn’t change my point about you. Because your point is not supported even if Shodan said what you claim. It doesn’t make your point - that you can prove that there is no stereotype for the word “nigger” other than being black from the fact that any black person has a non-zero chance of being called a "nigger - any less stupid.
It’s not surprising that you would try to divert attention from your own stupidity in making that claim in favor of focusing on a completely ancillary point of what Shodan meant or didn’t mean.
Shodan can clarify what he meant or didn’t mean. I interpreted his words the way I did for reasons that I’ve given, and still think that’s likely correct. If I was wrong about Shodan’s meaning, then I’m wrong about Shodan’s meaning, no big deal. What I’m not doing is making completely specious points and then refusing to confront that by focusing on ancillary matters. I leave that for people like you.
Again, you are either very confused or deliberately faking this.
Here is what you are missing. While it may have required B+P to elicit a response or an insult, the particular insult chosen, “N”, depended only on “B”. Had the person been white, a different insult would have been chosen.
Now, before you go off and claim that in some rare instances a white person will be called a nigger, let’s keep in mind that what that means is “you are the same as a black person”. Again, the essential fact is the negativity associated with blackness.
F-P: I so very sorry, but my dance card is full for the rest of the evening.