Wow, I thought he’d just slink away. The human mind is truly a mysterious thing. :dubious:
Here, let me help you with that.
Well, one possible definition would be someone who believes that racial grouping relates to inherent inferiority or superiority.
That’s nice. Judging from the linked thread, you are in fact a racist – which means that you believe that certain racial groups are inferior to others in measurable ways. Since anyone who has any acquaintance with the science on this subject knows that there is no actual evidence for this, it means that you believe things without evidence. I hope very hard that your real life work doesn’t depend on your obviously failed understanding of science.
Yes, I’ve noticed how much value is placed at the Straight Dope in being forcefully “politically incorrect”.
Well, on this board we can call people stupid, fat, ugly, crazy, fucktardish, and assholish, but for someone calling them racist is just.not.done. As our new resident racist has declared, it’s like calling someone a nigger. :
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When we cater to this nonsense, it just make us look like the stupid ones.
Now we can talk about the virtues of ad hominem-free discussions till the cows come home, but that’s neither here nor there. I’m not saying we should be calling people racist willy nilly. That said, the amount of pretzel twisting we have going on here to avoid offending the hearts and minds of Neaderthal idiots who are overlyimpressed with rhetoric that’s about 400 years out of date sometimes boggles my mind. It’s at the point that we can’t even call their arguments racist without someone catching the vapors.
Lord knows the last time i agreed with Finagain about anything…but he’s right. All they deserve is some good old fashion mockery. Entertaining their hijacks with debate just flatters them into thinking they are making rational arguments.
I have no problem with mocking racism or other types of bigotry in the Pit - because by that time, generally, the reasoned debate part is mostly over anyway.
What I don’t like is when a debate devolves into mockery when there is still some fun debate to be had - mainly because I prefer debate to mockery. Even if that mockery is richly deserved.
Unlike you, I’m often on the same side of debates as Finn, particlarly in middle eastern matters - but I disagree with aspects of his rhetorical style, and over this exact point: he enjoys a much more confrontational approach to anti-Jewish and anti-Israeli bigotry on the part of posters. This has the tendency to steer the debate into mutual mud-slinging matches, which I don’t particularly enjoy, even though I often agree the targets are validly labelled.
You know, NDD, if you were interested in facts, there are researchers that look at this stuff for real.
I don’t have to time to get into a detailed account now, but suffice to say it’s way more complicated than that, with major and minor migrations in several different directions (according to mitochondrial DNA evidence, among other), and over a time frame going back about 1.7 million years (according to fossils).
When it comes to people white guys perceive as black, that ain’t the kind of bones they tend to be obsessed with.
That’s- perhaps- a function of the fact that racism is no longer accepted in society. In order to gain any traction with a racist viewpoint, you don’t just have to establish that the viewpoint itself is plausible; you have to establish that a framework in which that viewpoint can fit is plausible. So, you have to work backwards towards the framework in which views on race used to fit.
In other words, it doesn’t matter to racists if they can only find data that shows that whites are superior to some other racial groupings; if they can establish that there are some racial groupings which are inherently superior, their work is done. They can deal with the Asians and Jews later.
Think of it like intelligent design: it used to be okay to teach that the Judeo-Christian God created everything in seven days. Then kids were taught that the Judeo-Christian God created everything, and maybe it took a long time. Then they were taught that the universe formed more or less spontaneously, and it took a long time.
So the arguments for creationism have gone from ignoring science completely, to contradicting science, to presented within a scientific framework, to presented as science.
In the same vein, the arguments for racism have gone from “niggers are subhuman”, to “niggers are inferior”, to “scientific evidence suggests that niggers are less intelligent”.
My problem with Finn is that he sees antisemitism where there is none and then goes bat shit crazy arguing against phantoms produced by his touchy, paranoid mind. Very little seems to provoke him into losing his shit. Now it would be one thing if he actually lost his shit in an entertaining way, but he doesn’t. I always worry a little about his mental health when he’s in the middle of his classic tirades. That’s why I avoid him. I don’t want to be the one who causes him to have an aneurysm.
But if someone were to posit over and over again, in every thread about Jews or Israel, that Jewish people were less intelligent, moral, or whatever than everyone else due to some genetic predisposition, you know what? I’d have no problem with him going ballstic with mockery and ad hominems. I’d even be willing to let his bat shit insanity slide.
The anti-African obsessionists that we have on this board are just like hypothetical posters who would use every thread even remotely about Israel to spread prejudice against Jewish people. So if someone calls them racist because ::gasp:: they espouse racist ideas, over and over again, like broken records, well then bravo. I don’t care if it’s in GD or 2100 Jackson St.
But that’s a narrative you are imposing on those who don’t automatically dismiss the studies. Just because you think they fit into that narrative doesn’t mean they do.
Also, these studies say nothing about “inherent inferiority”–they only measure one attribute of humans.
Ah, I see more Dio ignorance. The fact that one human can have characteristics associated with more than one race doesn’t invalidate the concept of race.
The reason this subject hijacks every thread on Africa is not because of those who bring it up, it’s because of the idiots like those in this thread who believe it simply must be wrong because it goes against their feelings about how the world should work. You folks are simply ignorant on this issue, and we’re trying to fight it.
This should be good, since the last thread was about a hypothetical where Africa was not colonized, what do you think it was gained by the fight made by the efforts of the crackpots here?
So Rand Rover, you haven’t read the thread being discussed here. Have you ever read any of these threads? It doesn’t sound like it; it sounds like you’re doing shtick. Whenever someone does the “the Bell Curve proves blacks are less intelligent” argument, other posters will chime in to explain why it does not prove that and what the scientific and other flaws are. And then in the next thread we’ll get “the Bell Curve proves blacks are less intelligent” again.
It’s not ignorance if one evaluates the evidence and then come to reasoned decision to reject the conclusions. Unless you have decided said evidence is irrefutable ;).
I’ve read many of the same papers and articles as Chief Pedant, Chen019 and their ideological allies. I simply continue to find their arguments unconvincing. IMHO the evidence isn’t irrefutable. Not even close, really.
But I place this debate in one of the “no-win” categories that I find myself increasingly bowing out on, even though I still read them. Like the Israel-Palestine issue or the special evility of Islam, I’ve grown too burnt-out to engage in them most of the time.
Marley23, speaking for only myself (and I believe Chief Pedant, but I’m not so sure about NDD), I do not believe the Bell Curve “proves” anything. I simply fail to dismiss it out of hand. I acknowledge its existence. I recognize its contribution to an ongoing scientific topic where the current research is somehwere between a hypothesis and the currently accepted working theory.
Orcenio and ywtf and Dio and many many others think that position in and of itself is racist. They spout their crap, I (and others) show why they are wrong, and then they spout their crap again in another thread.
They are like creationists who disbelieve scientific studies supporting evolution because it goes against their dogma.
And I didn’t read all of Þhat other thread, but I’ve seen the pattern enough times to know how they go.
Fortunately you don’t have to dismiss it out of hand. It deserves to be dismissed based on the scientific evidence and explanations that are posted just about every time someone brings up the Bell Curve. And while Chief Pedant says he only thinks it’s a theory (it’s certainly one he is strongly attached to given how often he brings it up), New Deal Democrat seems to think it’s correct and so does Chen019. I’m not sure how you have overlooked this if you know how these threads go.
Oh, dear. I am, as the fashion of the day dictates that I specify, laughing aloud. LAL.
Marley, your use of the word “theory” tends to show you aren’t speaking on a high intellectual level here. Evolution is “only a theory” after all.
I have no beef with someone who approaches the evidence dispassionately and makes up their mind one way or another based on the research. It just seems to me that many posters here don’t do that–they seem to think that the bell curve just must be wrong, so they cling to anýthing that supports that idea, no matter wat the underlying research shows. And some (eg, Dio) just make ver basic errors (eg, not understanding that “race” is a subjective criteria applied to people, not an inherent featuyre that is discovered about people).