Another JFK Conspiracy?

Great Debates
#1

OK, Not exactly. But every JFK conspiracy theory program run nowadays (usually by the History Channel or A&E) is now bent on proving that the Warren Commission was correct, that LHO acted alone, etc.

I seem to remember a program that was about 6-8 hours long, spread out over one long day or a few days in a row. The title, if I recall correctly, was “The Men Who Killed Kennedy”. I personally found it very interesting, and watched it a few different times. One of the things I remember that seems ironic now is that current Oswald proponent and 6th floor Museum curator Gary Mack was in the show, and he was most decidedly a CT buff.

Does anyone else remember this show, and if so, can you remember the last time you saw it?

I think it is strange that I have never seen it since the late 1990’s. Anyone recall this show, and have any idea why it might have been pulled? I don’t believe there was anything in it that could have been libelous, and anyway, it’s an investigative report, certainly well done and worthy of a viewing if you are interested in the assassination at all.

#2

Maybe because it was a pile of unsubstantiated suppositions, and eventually even the conspiracy theorists had seen it one time too many, and it was taken off due to bad ratings?

Perhaps they had to make room for compelling documentaries about ice road truckers, swamp loggers and ghost hunters?

#3

I’ve seen it more recently than that, and yes, it’s “The Men Who Killed Kennedy.” Maybe it’s not being aired a lot these days because it’s a 25-year-old pile of bullshit and there is a lot of newer bullshit to take its place. JFK conspiracy theories have probably taken a backseat to September 11th conspiracy theories in the broader market of CT nonsense.

#4

I don’t remember it being a pile of bullshit, but I also haven’t seen it in a long time, so maybe there are things in that program that are patently false. Now that I’m thinking about it, I think it came either right before or right after Oliver Stone’s movie, JFK, which was in 1991 or '92 I believe. So at least 20 years have passed.

I remember a couple of things in particular. The deaf and dumb guy who was a witness to the conspiracy and the grassy knoll shooter. I thought "how unlucky is this? Tens of thousands of people are in Dallas to see the motorcade, and the ONE person that could break this wide open was deaf and dumb, therefore unable to communicate with the police in time. That’s one of those :dubious: moments. The other story I remember was the heavy guy with the story that he was the serviceman on the grassy knoll right beside Zapruder and was witnessed there but never identified at the time. They showed him an enhanced picture of the Mary Mooreman photo and it showed him, Zapruder, and the shooter (badgeman) and a railroad worker looking toward the TSBD. He got visibly upset when he realized that he had seen the officer behind him that day and he believed he saw the man who shot Kennedy. That was one of the moments in the show which I though “he certainly doesn’t seem like he’s lying. Maybe he WAS there, and maybe he DID see a policeman that day. It doesn’t mean that guy shot Kennedy, but it was an interesting nugget if it was indeed him in the photo.”

I’ll have to see if I can dig up a copy of that at the library or something. Because those are the only two significant things I remember about the show. I remember other bits and pieces, like the guy who supposedly tracked down the killers, but who knows what he was talking about… Over the years I’ve become convinced that the people of this country will believe just about anything someone with an English accent tells them, and this guy had one. He could have easily been selling us the SHAM-WOW if he lived 20 years later. :wink:

#5

“The Men Who Killed Kennedy” was first aired in October 1988. You can read a lot of what they “found” at that Wikipedia entry. There were some expanded versions later. Stone’s JFK is from the end of 1991.

Do you mean it’s a ridiculous story, or that it casts doubt on the Oswald theory?

Spoiler alert: all of this stuff is bullshit. Oswald shot Kennedy.

#6

Just read Gerald Posner’s Case Closed, then turn off the TV.

#7

The baseball writer Bill James subscribes to the theory that the fatal shot came from the gun of one of JFK’s Secret Service agents, by accident, as the agent was reacting to the sound of gunfire. I forget the details, and I’m a few hundred miles from my library to check, but he makes it sound pretty convincing.

#8

Retreading old ground, but I believe the ballistics reconstruction of Kennedy’s fatal wound most reliably points back to the window where Oswald was perched (imagine a cone of “uncertainty”, since the exact position of Kennedy’s head at the moment of impact is not precisely known). The SS chase car and the agent carrying the AR-15* is a bit outside of the said envelope. If there were any actual shooters on the grassy knoll, they were terrible shots because the wound conclusively was shown to have come from a bullet to the rear of the limo, not the front.

[*Do a search of “Mortal Error: The Shot that Killed Kennedy” for more info, if you wish]

#9

I thought it was BS. Come on… A witness who just happens to be deaf And dumb?

#10

I like watching TV. And I refuse to take anyone’s word who wears his hair like the little Dutch boy after the age of 5. There’s something very plastic about Mr. Posner.

#11

This is the level of seriousness Kennedy conspiracy theories should be treated with.

#12

I thought that was a theory in RFK’s assassination.

#13

It seems that you are totally convinced of oswald’s guilt.

Who got to you?
:smiley:

#14

And, of course, he was also illiterate, had broken fingers, and was phobic about typewriters, pencils, pens, and paper, right?

So, a guy gets set up by a CT adherent to believe that part of the imaginary activity happened near him and when he is then shown “evidence” that one of the “bad guys” really was near him, he freaks out. I have watched dozens of parades in my life and, aside from family members who accompanied me, I could not remember anyone who was near me at any of them. If someone showed me a photograph, years later, placing me near an historically important person, I would tend to be surprised. If they had just prepped me to believe that the person had done some incredibnly evil thing at the same time, I might react with a bit of shock.
The guy does not have to be lying, just human in having a lack of memory about a particular situation along with a touch of human gullibility regarding the story he was being fed to get his reaction.

#15

There is overwhelming evidence that Oswald did it. The conspiracy questions are: was he the only shooter? Was he put up to it?

The evidence that there were other shooters were witnesses who heard shots coming from other places. There were witnesses who saw suspicious people. I am dubious about hearing where a rifle shot came from. The suspicious people were not seen with guns. No other guns were found. For that reason I am dubious that there were other shooters.

As for whether Oswald was put up to shooting Kennedy, knowingly or unknowingly, by other persons, we have no direct evidence, but rather suspicious circumstances. He was known by the CIA, and possibly used as an asset from time to time. He was killed by a small time mobster (Jack Ruby) in a classic shut him up set up. There isn’t enough evidence to prosecute anyone but Ruby (who was convicted of murdering Oswald), but the overall circumstances make it look like a trained ambush, not the political act of a madman as most political assassinations are.

Personally I think Oswald was an assassin on someone else’s orders. Oswald did claim to be a patsy, but he is not credible. He was at best mentally fragile.

No other shooters were seen at the crime scene. Although they were heard by many, it could be echos. Oswald isn’t talking.

#16

Ruby wasn’t a mobster. There’s also no evidence of anybody putting Ruby up to it or even much plotting on Ruby’s part.

#17

This should be required reading for anyone referencing that series:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/holland3.htm

#18

I would also think a conspiracy as large and powerful as this one which would have had to basically control several law enforcement agencies would have found an easier way to dispose of Oswald. I.E. have him committ suicide in jail or even just have him shot to death when captured by the Dallas police in the theatre.

#19

Of course not. The FBI’s official position was that there was no mafia. And we know that the FBI is always right. If there were one or more people like Ruby in the area waiting for the opportunity, we wouldn’t really expect them to say they committed premeditated murder and name their bosses. The evidence that Ruby whacked Oswald is on film. And it is exactly how the mafia would have done it if they were involved. I’m pretty sure that the Godfather II hit on Hymen Roth was inspired by this real shooting.

I agree that it is possible Oswald acted entirely alone and Ruby acted entirely alone. But I don’t buy it.

#20

The Zapruder film itself shows that the fatal head shot did NOT come from the grassy knoll. Bullets don’t do damage like that. The entrance wound is small, the bullet tumbles and then creates a dramatic exit wound (as we see on film). It really couldn’t have come from any other place BUT the Book Depository.