Under supervision, children are capable of a lot (even directing air traffic… Judgement withheld). Sitting on my dads lap, he “let me steer” as young as five as six, of course I never had control of the car, but as I got more experience, i gradually gained more and more finesse in controlling the wheel, and eventually he let me steer myself. All of this on private property.
I got my own dirt bike at 7, but it was a training bike (designed for my age and size). Once I got experience with that he bought me a race bike, after about a year (again, built for my size and age, not for an adult – still not a slow bike).
I frequently rode ATVs, from child to adult sized (when we were at a friends house, I plowed his very long drive way using a full sized, very powerful ATV with a plow on it, which would be dangerous for anyone without experience – I did the job just fine… But I should have taken the plow off after I took it for a joy ride… Long story).
I didn’t actually drive a car (truck) until I was about 13, I think. I drove an old, old (stick shift… Didnt turn out well) pickup my grandpa bought. I drove it out in his back yard, and probably did more to contribute to the junking of that truck than anything else in it’s 40 years of existence. But it was a great time for both him, and me.
As for boats… Long story.
There’s a song about it, “when daddy let me drive,” or something to that effect. I don’t listen to country, but it’s a good song.
State laws on firearm ownership vary.
Federal Law states a firearms dealer may not sell a long gun to anyone under 18, and pistols or class 3 firearms to anyone under 21 (and with a class 3 permit, for class 3 items).
There exist finger-tap-combination-lock or biometric-lock safes that are particularly easy to open quickly in the dark while maintaining that combination-lock security level–that’s the way one stores properly a gun for protective use.
There aren’t any ranges around where I live that offer gun storage or rental. In point of fact, the only range around here that’s open to the public, so far as I know, is run by the PA State Game Commission on the local State Game Lands. It’s not even open half the time, it’s barely monitored, and you get what you pay for–free, and the closest thing to “service” is a range master for a few hours a day and free bullseye targets sponsored by various local outdoors shops (and frankly in a college town it scares the hell out of me when the frat boys roll up with a trunkfull of high-caliber rifles and silhouette targets to play badass–that’s my cue to either start playing range-safety-officer or leave when they don’t listen.)
This is, by the way, the “why do you own a Miata or anything other than a 4-banger sedan, instead of renting one at a racetrack” argument, and it doesn’t hold.
It was not terribly long ago that my parents, uncles/aunts, and grandparents were receiving their first firearms as both rites of passage and essential supplements to the family dinner table (rabbits and such, my stock was rural dirt poor for almost a century there) at age 6-8. Children are capable of handling some responsibility by themselves at that age, especially if it can be trained as rote and not instilled with a sense of fascination or forbidden fruit–we don’t expect to have to leash a kid that age to keep 'em from running into the street, after all, I was walking a mile to school in kindergarten at that age by myself.
Out here in the middle of nowhere, it was commonplace to know who grew up on a farm and who did not–it was the latter who got into car wrecks when they were 16 and had their first car. For the farm kids, who drove tractors and such starting as soon as their parents needed the help, driving was a job and a utilitarian thing. Hot-dogging never came up. (I was in the latter case, my mom wouldn’t even let me drive the riding mower AFTER I had my driver’s license, because the first and only time I drove one the brakes failed (it was ancient) and I successfully steered it uphill and bailed off, because my dad had drilled me on that before he let me ride it, and the mower was a chore and not a toy)
Would I give my 8-yr-old their own gun in 2010? Probably not. I live in a city, and I have no need of rabbit for my larder. But an eight-year-old is not on-the-face-of-it incapable of responsible gun ownership–I have a dozen examples of accident-free firearm ownership at that age among the last two generations of my own family alone.
Both of my firearms are bog-standard, off-the-rack long arms, costing less than $250 each. We non-nuts do in fact exist.
I’ll be the first to admit you’d be much better off than the US if you imported the guns without the more toxic aspects of US gun nuttery. There are countries with a higher per capita ownership rate and lower gun violence rates, so obviously there are cultural factors beyond just the presence of guns that cause the problems the US seems to have relatively more of.
You have my personal blessing as a gun-owning non-nut to not own a gun if you don’t want one. It’s seriously all good.
I do try to shout down the nuts when I see them, but you really do bring up a good point that the nuts are pretty vocal.
In PA you can get a hunting license issued as young as 12 (11, if you will be 12 before the season you’re being licensed for starts) with a certificate of completed Hunter’s Safety Course.
You have to be 18 to own a gun or use one without supervision. However, there is no statutory legal limit on how young of a minor child is permitted to operate a firearm in the presence of their legal guardian or an adult with the permission of their legal guardian to supervise firearms use.
Interestingly, it’s technically illegal to have a firearm concealed or in your vehicle at all in PA, as I understand the statute, unless you have a plan/purpose in mind–it’s specifically legal to be going to go hunting or target shooting or to a safety course with a gun in your car, but not to just drive around with it.
That makes sense only in the sense that you are statistically more likely to die if you were born. I mean, come on. Of course you’re more likely to have an accident with a gun if you own one, because it’s statistically impossible to have an accident with a gun if you don’t. It’s an absurd tautology.
You have to be 18 to own a gun, 21 for a handgun. That is, if the weapon is in your name. If your parents buy one for your supervised use and gift it to you while you are still a minor, it’s yours but is still legally owned by your parents.
There is no age limit on usage. If I bought my son a rifle tomorrow he could go to the range with me. I could ship him off to Boy Scout camp and he could use the range there.
People with concealed carry permits are exempt from that regulation.
It is more convincing than your anectdotal “I don’t know anyone” “evidence.” Now you know four. Andtherearealotmoretoo.
Two of them are about towns enacting or wanting to enact laws mandating gun ownership. The last one actually says all women, not all people. Still, that is about 5 minutes of Googling.
As much as you might wish it so, the opinion that everyone should own a gun is not as limited as you seem to think it is.
I don’t care if the reason you wanting a gun are for hunting or protection or because you fear a Martian invasion. I think one of those reasons is stupid and irrational but you’re welcome to it.
I gotta admit it’s hard. I mean, I’m a center-left Democrat on most issues, I just happen to enjoy a spot of target shooting and the yearly fresh venison and/or excuse to stand around in pretty woods all day, and I think the risk-vs-reward on a protective firearm isn’t automatically balanced in favor of “don’t get one” (but then again, for me right now it is). So it gets really hard for me, even if I understand to an extent (given that I’m immersed in a political culture (as a lefty) that can very vocally hate and fear guns, not just “not want guns”) why the nuttier gun nuts are the way they are about it.
Realistically, I think most gun rights advocates are in the same boat–the nuts kinda scare us too, so it’s between hard and irritating to own up to them being out there and taking extreme versions of our positions.
And the other half of the issue is that there are people trying, actively, to take away all guns. Mayors of big cities, even. Or country-wide campaigns. Where people could most use a gun for self protection, they can’t have it. (insert random cite about decorated soldier defending his family in Chicago with an illegal gun. Examiner is back - Examiner.com compared with Mr. Daley threatening to shove a rifle with bayonet up a reporter’s ass.)
If the people who were opposed to guns were even slightly more rational about it, maybe something could be done. But it’s like Michael Moore is on the gun owner’s side, and PETA is on the gun-restrictor side, and to fucking hell with both of them.
(Yes, I just compared the NRA to Michael Moore. They have roughly the same amount of truth in their proclamations.)
Great!
So tell us about it. We have shared our stories. I will gladly share more. I’m from Chicago originally, but grew up in central Illinois. I spent my high school years in Denver, but have been in the mountains for 18 years. Lions and Tigers and Bears. Well, not too many tigers.
Share your story.
Oh Jeeze, that reminds me of the time a mountain lion jumped on the roof of my cabin when I was at summer camp. The eight of us could hear the lion scratching at the roof, hoping the base cabin could hear our emergency klaxon, until someone with a gun could come scare the fucker away.
Also, did you know that you can legally get a license in the state of Ohio at the age of 14? Under specific circumstances, of course.
The “oh shit it isn’t going away” factor is frightening. I’ve found bears in the back of my truck and more often in my yard.
I’ve had them sit and wait and watch me. It’s eerie. I’ve swum with sharks, but they didn’t just try to wait you out. Banging pots and pans did not scare this one guy away. A shot from a 30-30 into a tree stump near him finally did.
Always make sure they are at least 20 times further away from you than you are from safety. A gun may help, but don’t count on it. Bears only look slow.
I really hope I never face a big cat in the same situation. Mountain Lions are a real tough nut. They scare me.
IMHO, dogs are the best bet If you are worried about personal protection. We have two. We don’t own them for protection though (the more I think about it, it’s the other way around). We own them because we love dogs. They are a wandering and sometimes annoying alarm system. They are usually right, but often a bit over the top since I really don’t worry too much about being invaded by a porcupine (though, I’m sure that would really, REALLY suck).
I see the guns that I own as recreational equipment that can be used for defense. I’m a target shooter, that guns can be used for defense is a side bonus.
The dogs are part of the family, but, they also provide the bonus of being active alarms. It’s pretty symbiotic around here. Or, it sure is for the dogs (lazy free loading lovable goof balls that they are)
It’s the worst. It’s like when in a horror movie, you can see the axe murderer behind the cute blond, and you can he’s thinking “I’m going to butcher her!” and she’s oblivious. Except, you’re the cute blond, and you can see the axe murderer. And there’s nothing you can do.
Hah, the camp guide guy said “There is no safety, not in these woods. Your cabin is only as safe as the wildlife allows. Sleep well.”
A few hours later… Scraaaaaaaaaaaatch, claaaaaaaaaaaaaaw, snarrrrrrrrrrrrrrl from outside
pees himself
I didn’t even see the thing, only heard it and saw the claw marks the next day. I still almost died of fright.
My dogs think they’re badass. And so do other people. But they’re big marshmellows, I think. Our male was shitzun trained, iron dog, etc badass, he’s probably capable of badassery… but our female, she’s the sweetest thing in the world. I pick her up by her hips, throw her around the house (not quite literally, but I still toss her around like a puppy, at 70 pounds) and she’s fine with it.
But when someone walks by… she lets us know! They’ve got no problem with the mail man, but any passers-by, she sure does show them. :rolleyes:
And I’ll second guns being a great pass time, and protection is really a very anciliary function that I hope never to need them for.
Spent most of my first 8-9 years near Fairbanks, Alaska. This was back in the 60s; we had friends in Anchorage when the earthquake hit. During the winters, shooting animals wasn’t something you did because you wanted to spend a day in the forest drinking beer with your buddies. Hunting was necessary for food. Spent many years after that living near a rock quarry in the mountains midway between Ft Collins and Denver (that area remains by far the prettiest place I’ve ever lived). We were there for Colorado River flooding in the early 80s.
Back in Alaska, we saw more needless injuries and death from guns to last us a lifetime. At least back in the day, I’d wager guns were killing more people than cars. And my family strangely enough never saw the need to have their 8yr old shoot a gun or drive a car. Those were things responsible parents took care of.
The ‘I think guns are fun recreational toys’ mentality, I don’t get. Hanging out in the woods shooting animals for fun, I don’t get. Why you’d want anything in your home that had no other use than for killing things, I don’t get.
It’s the people playing around with guns as toys that are the nut-cases when it comes to guns. You know what? People that actually need to use guns typically hate them.
DragonAsh, you have a terrible misconception about gun owners. The hunters that I know are careful and considerate.
I do hate it when people mischaracterize gun owners. Many folks have been completely brainwashed about guns. Hence my desire to have training and education that goes beyond Eddy Eagle type programs that promote “guns are scary, run away”.
I enjoy target shooting. I also understand them for what they are. I do not fear them but do respect them. I respect all the tools I have. Around here, more people are hurt or killed skiing then they are by guns.
For myself, target shooting is a sport. Lots of sports require great diligence and concentration. Skiing, SCUBA diving, rock climbing and a thousand other sports require it too. It’s a way to remove yourself from everyday life and focus at the task at hand.
Dressing a knot, or checking your buddies diving gear before dropping over the edge is not unlike the safety and concentration necessary when target shooting or hunting.
I’ve always been a ‘What every floats your boat’ guy. There are dangers associated with fire arms. There are dangers in many aspects of living. I don’t mind discussing them. It does bug me that in particular, with regard to firearms, the folks that are against them don’t seem to want to educate themselves about them but prefer to spread misinformation.
DragonAsh - That you don’t understand that guns are used for recreation is fine. My Wife does not enjoy shooting, that’s fine. There are plenty of things that I don’t do that other people enjoy. That’s fine with me. That some folks would like to take activities away from other people because they don’t understand it is something that I don’t understand.
After years of living in the Alaska wilderness and the Rocky Mountains…actually, I have a *very good idea *of how most gun owners think and act. The comments in this and other threads do not inspire confidence.
Yeah, I’m sure someone who lived in Alaska 40+ years ago when they were 8 could really offer some valuable insights about the psychological makeup of gun owners.
Drinking beer and shooting guns, while popular on television, is something Ive never actually seen or heard of in real life. (Beyond the average “stupid fucker shot himself” type thing on TV.)
Toy is not the right word for a gun anymore than it is for a Ferrari or ATV. They’re potentially dangerous, but they have more use than just “killing things.”
Do you deny that objects which can be used as weapons are often used as sports implements? (Javelin, Fencing, Archery, etc.)
By the way, I own firearms and have never shot an animal in my life, and have no intention of starting now. The most dangerous thing Ive ever shot with a forearm consisted of ground, bleached wood pulp.
Again, playing is not an accurate word as it brings up childish implications of irresponsibility. You don’t “play” with an archery set, and you don’t “play” with an ATV or Ferrari, and you certainly don’t play with a firearm.
As for people who need guns hating them, that’s absolute and unadulterated bullshit. Many, probably the plurarality, of people who need guns don’t have a particular love or dislike of them, some people who need them use them recreationally (probably the 2nd largest group) as well and a very small minority dislike them, with the rest a mix between options one and two.
And unlike you, who only has 40 year old experience from childhood, I am close friends with police, hunters, sports shooters, people who live in the boonies and require guns for protection and military personnel.
If you factor out military personnel and police (as in, only people who purchase guns foe themselves), your numbers go astronomically towards “not disliking guns,” and even then it’s only a very few police and military who dislike them.
