It’s correct that we don’t know the situations of these random sampling of women. But if certain women are constantly not able to find a man they like, and using the same excuse that they’re too Nice… well, maybe they might have a problem too? And some point, when someone complains that it’s everyone else, one must look within.
I think you missed the point of the article. It was asking women to talk about men with whom they didn’t got out on second or third dates. To say these women are “constantly not able to find a man they like” is an assumption on your part not warranted by the article. I’m married and I could answer that question as well. Not going on a second date with someone is not evidence that you’re chronically single.
I know what ‘too available’ means. It means ‘is willing to be incredibly romantic with me, and possibly even talk about long-term stuff, without actually knowing me.’
When I was single with a very young child, some women I met were very into me precisely because I offered a ready-made family. (I’m a lesbian, FWIW, so having kids is not as straightforward as it for fertile straight couples). They weren’t actually interested in me as a person.
It’s really insulting to realise that you, as an individual, are almost peripheral to the potential relationship.
And there is ‘too nice’ in the sense of ‘acts like an unpaid gigolo when I’m looking for an equal.’ Some romcoms have taught men that they should go all out on dates - but that can put people off. Roses, a romantic location, meaningful music? Lovely - but only if the person you’re with means something to you. On a first date, that’s unlikely.
The best first date I ever went on had fireworks (literally - the best display I’ve ever seen), an orchestra saluting us (playing along to the fireworks), and a walk along the South Bank - but it was all accidental after a night out getting pissed with friends. If it were a set-up, it would have been creepy.
I hope that what truly nice guys take from this article is not that nice guys finish last, but rather that the difference between nice and “nice” is that nice has self-respect and “nice” doesn’t. Nice guys just are, and are better for it; “nice” guys force it, and debase themselves in the process.
With self-respect comes limits to what you’re willing to do to win someone’s favor and how much shit you’re willing to take from them, and those aren’t necessarily bad things.
And, if you were stalking me on my last dinner date, why didn’t you interfere with some interesting conversation?!
Coincidentally, one of my colleagues and I were discussing just this phenomenon this morning. (She’s long-time married, and takes vicarious pleasure in my dating woes. Makes her appreciate what she has, even when her husband is driving her completely around the bend.) I went out to dinner with a guy. It was not a good experience - all conversation seemed to be Me: “I think X.” Him: “You’re absolutely right.” Long, awkward silence… Me: “Who’s your favorite college football team?” Him: “Who do you like?” Me: “The East Bumblefuck Dryhumps.” Him: “Yeah, I like them too.” Long, awkward silence…
Every conversation I’ve had about this guy has been prefaced with “He seems like a perfectly nice man…” “Perfectly nice,” though, can be translated to “he may or may not have his own pair of brain cells.” Pleasant? Yes. Boring? Yes. Not very bright? Yes. Sometimes, “perfectly nice” translates to “entirely too grateful that he has a date.” (Mind you, I’m not anyone’s idea of Miss America. I’m reasonably attractive, “of a certain age” - 40, and reasonably smart and competent. I’m not looking for a trophy date, just someone whose company I can enjoy.)
The follow-up? This “perfectly nice man” averages calling me 6 times per day for the past month. I don’t answer. I’ve already told him that I’m not interested in a second date. Knowing that a group of my friends and I meet at a certain place on a certain evening of the week, he showed up at this restaurant Tuesday night. “I just happened to be coming by. I’ve called, but I haven’t heard from you. Are you going to call me?”
No. No, I’m not going to call you. I gave you a chance before, and frankly, you bore me. I won’t say that, though. (And maybe it would be better if I did? I don’t know.) What I will say is “Oh, have you met my friend J? And this is my cousin T. And my neighbor R.” Translation: “My best friend is retired Special Forces, my cousin is a very large Teamster, and my neighbor is a police officer. This is my slightly subtle way of reminding you not to mess with me. Quite frankly, you’re beyond twice my size, and you’ve crossed the line into making me feel very uncomfortable.”
His reaction? “Are you going to call me? I’d like to see you again sometime soon.”
:smack:
I gave him a chance - not because he was attractive (he’s not,) but because he seemed perfectly pleasant. When I was younger, I probably would have given him a second chance. Today, I don’t have the patience to happily endure stupid or vapid.
The context of the OP link doesn’t trash “nice guys,” unless by “nice guy” you mean martyr/stalker/doormats.
Well…that comment is pretty out of line. I’m a misogynist because…why again?
IMHO, it’s not an issue of women lowering their standards. It’s more like, are you looking for an adult relationship or are you still trying to live your adolescent fantasy? I have one friend, every guy she dates is “edgy”. But then after a couple of months, “edgy” becomes “serious issues”.
And if you meet a real nice guy who you have a great time with but then reject him for being too nice and actually wanting to see you again, that’s just fucked up.
Meaning what?
No one held a gun to your head.
I understand what you’re saying. Take my post #21 as a general a statement, “But if certain women…”.
Certain women in general… is what I meant in my last post.
In the article, the women didn’t refuse second dates with the guys because the guys were too nice, they refused second dates because the guys were too eager, and sometimes too desperate.
I’m so glad I’m not in the dating scene anymore.
Everything I’ve read since I’ve left it has proven one thing: Nobody knows anything.
If I had followed people’s advice, I would never have met and dated the woman I ended up marrying. And the same is true for her, as well.
Ed
“Too available” to me means he doesn’t have a life of his own. If I’m going to date someone with an eye to having him in my life long-term, I want him to have a lifestyle that appeals to me. A guy who is “too available” appears to have nothing else going on in his life. What would that mean for me if I got seriously involved with him? Am I going to have to be the one to plan and organise every activity we do because he’d just sit on his butt without me to motivate him? Is he going to make his life revolve around me - and expect the same in return? That’s an oppressive way to live. Is he going to want me to stay home and be inactive with him? Maybe an available guy like that will be willing and open to trying out and taking up my interests too, and we can have great times together… but why wouldn’t an adult who is so open minded and adventurous already have interests of their own? Is he one of those people who is incomplete without a relationship, because that’s not appealing. I want a whole person, not a half person who I have to prop up.
I’m about to tell an online acquaintance that I don’t intend to ever meet him in person, and reason is because I feel he is too available - by that I mean, he spends every evening sitting in front of his TV and his computer, he doesn’t go anywhere, he doesn’t do anything, and he doesn’t seem to have any interests. It’s taken me a while to decide not to meet because sure, he seems like a nice guy, but “nice” is how you describe anyone you don’t know very well because they haven’t been either horrible or interesting yet. The longer you know someone, the more detailed and varied the description ought to become. If it’s stuck at “nice” beyond a casual acquaintanceship it means a serious deficit of any actual personality traits. “Nice” in this case does very much mean boring. I don’t want the sort of excitement that comes from a guy beating me up or hiding at my house from the cops, but something from the middle ground with a man who takes an interest in life, and in turn is interesting.
This is making me cringe because I was “that guy” a couple of years ago. I was hanging out with a girl I liked, and we ended up making out a little bit, and I was all happy because I thought she wanted to see me again, so then every time I saw her I was like “When are we going to hang out again?” and she’d blow me off - God, I must have sounded desperate. Then I heard through channels she said I was “creepy”. Oh my God, that was humiliating. I could never face her again. I actually went out of my way to avoid her after that, I was so embarassed.
Well, that’s not very “nice”. I guess I’m compelled to fuck your brains out now. I find myself inexplicably drawn to you since you’re mean to me.
:rolleyes:
I get what you’re saying. There is a girl I’m friends with who dated a guy who would never leave his appartment block. They didn’t “go out to eat” they “went downstairs” to the restaurant / club on the ground floor of the building. Think Shaun from Shaun of the Dead always taking his girlfriend to the same dumb bar, except that this guy lived in the same building.
OTOH, there is a bit of a paradoxal quality to your comments about this guy online. Maybe he is totally lame like you say. Or, maybe he’s just a regular guy who goes to work, comes home, watches TV and surfs the Net like most people. Maybe you want him to be this fun, exciting guy whose always out doing fun, exciting things. Except chances are you might not have met that guy because he wouldn’t be online looking for dates. It’s kind of like saying “I met this really nice girl in a bar last night, but I won’t date her because I don’t date girls I meet in bars.” Well…maybe that person shouldn’t be going to bars to meet girls if they are looking for a serious relationship.
What I would rather hear women say instead of “he’s too nice” is something like “he just didn’t do it for me”. They way, maybe real nice guys (not Nice Guy tools) won’t think that all women want is a douchey guy who stays out all night drinking, cheats on them, slaps them around and sells her TV set to pay for smokes.
Most men don’t really care about what career a woman has. You rarely hear successful, professional man say “I met this really great girl, but she’s only an admin assistant / waitress / exotic dancer.” Successful women, OTOH, tend to want to date a man at least as successful as they are which limits their options to a relative small pool of men.
We women are “too nice” and don’t want to damage the man’s (Nice Guy) precious feelings. 
I’m joking, please don’t kill me.
That, or they’d be expected by society/family/friends/work to date a man as successful as they are. It is harder because in women, there is more expectation (from others) to marry an “equal or above” person. Personal experience talking: My brother married a woman who never went to college and is now a stay at home mom. Nobody in the family batted an eye. Meanwhile, my mom has explicitly told me not to bring or present anybody to my family who is not “intelligent”, by which I took to mean “has to have at least a bachelor’s degree in something useful and not be a blue-collar worker”. The only boyfriends my older sister has introduced are all professionals, PhDs, or artists (she’s an artist herself, she gets the exception). These, of course, are not the only type she has dated.
You’re on to something here. There is some almost-universal relationship advice, but honestly not all that much of it (i.e. talk to your partner, be respectful when arguing, do novel activities together etc). Of all the girls i’ve dated, the two that I was best with were both terrible for me “on paper.” Thankfully I’ve still got one of them :).
I could have put “don’t date the unemployed drug addict” on the list of almost universal advice, but I actually haven’t seen any data on that one; it’s a bit outside my field.
He’s not “totally lame”, I never said that and wouldn’t say that.
You mean… maybe he’s just like me? I sure don’t live a fast-paced life of high adventure either. I’m a single mum who works weekends, and I don’t have a lot of time for hijacks, tomfoolery and capers. I do spend a lot of time online. But even by my low standards of activity, he’s really inactive.
I think part of what bugs me about him is that he sometimes talks about how he doesn’t think he’ll ever find a relationship and how sad that makes him, and how he really wants to meet a girl, fall in love, get married, have kids… but then he can’t be bothered going out or taking up a hobby or visiting a pub or doing anything that would put him in contact with actual humans. It’s like he expects it to fall into his lap. He’s not living a life anyone would want to share, so it shouldn’t surprise him that he hasn’t met anyone who wants to share it.
I can’t decide if he talks like that out of genuine self pity, or if it’s supposed to make me think “Wow, this is a guy who really wants to settle down… That’s hot!”, but I can’t help contrasting his words with his (lack of) actions and feeling that he’s his own worst enemy. I am not meeting a lot of people at this point either; I’m quite content on my own so unlike him I’m not lamenting the fact or complaining about it to other people. I joined a dating site because… meh, you never know. If I felt as he says he does about being on my own, I’d be trying to find activites, clubs and outings that would put me in contact with people of the opposite gender to give myself some better odds.
Definitely this. I mostly dated nice guys, and married a nice guy, and I’m very happy–but they pretty much had self-respect and lives of their own. My husband isn’t ‘edgy’ or ‘bad’ in any way–he is actively a good, solid man with self-respect, which is very different than a “nice” guy who try to force a relationship too soon and have no self-respect.
(snip)
This is true. As a male and an artist, I’ve had to relegate myself to blue collar work lately to make the bills since the interesting work has all dried up. My fiance’ is just finishing up her Masters this summer and will most likely make more than me. We have no issues about this but it is surprising how many members of our respective families raise eyebrows at the very thought of it. It’s as if all the work we’ve put into our 6 year relationship is of no value compared to the number on a pay stub. While we aren’t traditional people, and are strong enough to ignore the comments, I can easily see how more conformist types would become distressed about their perceived choices.
Walk out onto the sidewalk, or to the lobby of your office building. Look at the first woman that crosses your line of vision, regardless of age or looks.
Now imagine that this complete stranger has somehow decided that the only man for her is YOU and she’s gonna make you love her no matter what. And somehow she is going to make this completely one-sided attraction about YOU.
It’s hard to pin down exactly how attraction starts, but sometimes it’s a glint in the smile or the way they talk or walk. It doesn’t have to be a full-blown crush at first sight, but you’ve gotta have a spark. Maybe that spark will die out right away or maybe it wil ignite into something more but its gotta be there. ON BOTH SIDES.
I often meet men that I find attractive that have no attraction to me. Guess what, that’s where it ends. I don’t pester them and Idon’t think that there anything wrong with them for failing to appreciate me. There’s just no spark, maybe it’s phernormal or hormonal or just the way it is. When that happens I move on and guess what…so should you.
And as a 50+ woman I find your impression that ages matter frankly insulting. I would rather be alone that be with a man I’m not attracted to. Not to say that there is never a spark that can develop into something more, but the bottom line is “no spark, no fire”.
And it’s not about you. Once I was walking down the street when a handsome man (yes he really was) approached me and attempted to strike up a conversation and ask me out for coffee. I told him I wasn’t interested and he began to berate me for not giving him a chance, the usual nice guy ME ME ME refrain. This happened the day after my husband’s funeral.