And if ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we’d all have a merry Christmas.
It’s all well and good to talk about what should be, but we don’t live in the world that should be. We live in the world that is, and that world is a dangerous place full of things that should not be. And just because the things that should not be should not be, doesn’t mean we can pretend that they aren’t.
Major analogy fail - using condoms to avoid disease is the default. Kissing cops’ asses so they don’t shoot you, is not the default - or at least shouldn’t be. **mhendo **has the proper response to any and all, “well what did he expect,” bullshit:
Fun fact: officer Groubert is a former SC Trooper of the year.
Well go and educate yourself then.
As a general position, yes it is.
When it is the main focus of your arguments after an officer guns down a person who was obeying his direct instruction, you might have your priorities a bit screwed up.
And when you do this after spending (literally) hundreds of posts on this board acting as the PR arm for the American Society of Aggressive and Racist Law Enforcement Officers, then don’t be surprised if some people aren’t interested in cutting you any slack.
Or, what Vinyl Turnip said.
I believe the main focus of my argument has been that the officer was wrong, and that there are things you can do to protect yourself in such a situation.
Or is it your argument that there is nothing you can do to protect yourself from a wrong police officer?
I think Smapti is right. It’s not blaming the victim to suggests that they use caution even if the result of their lack of caution wouldn’t have been their fault. And I will certainly be more cautious in the future. Next time I get pulled over, I’m going to kill the cop before he kills me.
I get that. But what you, and the others in this thread defending you, are missing, is that what the guy did was perfectly reasonable. You really think he should have known better than to walk to his car and reach inside when a cop asked him for his ID? It seems like whatever the fuck the guy did, you would say, “he should have known to do this other thing.” Nobody can keep up with all the fucking training you expect civilians to have to deal with incompetent asshole cops.
I get what you’re saying with your analogy to burglary - yes, the burglar is in the wrong, but at least you can lock your doors. Fine.
Here, though, it’s like you’re saying, “OK, he locked his doors and had a burglar alarm, but everybody knows you should have locks that aren’t impossible to pick, in case the burglar decides to bash the door down because the locks are too hard, and then everyone knows you should have decoy jewelry stored in the jewelry box and your real jewelry behind the false back to the third drawer down in the kitchen cabinets. I mean, really.”
Especially if, every time issues like these are discussed, he actually does try to blame the victim in every possible way. Even if he actually gets one right and doesn’t pin it all on the victim, you still hope he’ll see the larger picture instead of approaching it from the douchebag POV. ‘Oh, I guess this one’s OK. The others are still dumb sluts.’
And what kind of murderer lets a cop pull him over and drive right up behind him, and doesn’t go for his gun after the cop asks for his license?
He’s saying that, one, women know this stuff and don’t need the fucking reminders from you; two, this advice is mostly useless because it’s not how rape generally occurs; and three, if you’re actually trying to help people avoid a problem, going over their behavior with a fine-toothed comb when they’ve just suffered through some awful experience is not very helpful. It puts people on the defensive and creates the implication that a victim is only worthy of sympathy if he/she has done everything possible to avoid any blame. Otherwise- why, they should’ve known better!
That’s my argument. After the shooting the cop says his victim “you dove headfirst back into your car and jumped back out,” none of which happened at all. The victim reached back into his car, never left his feet, and didn’t “jump” until the cop started screaming at him. At which point he was shot. How do you think you can prevent a nervous, stupid motherfucker with a gun from doing something irrational? And in my first post in this thread I referred to a situation where the victim didn’t even have a chance to take your ‘advice:’ a Walmart customer said John Crawford was loading a gun (he wasn’t) and pointing it at people (nope) and the cops rushed in and shot Crawford to death. The cops say they talked to him but there’s no evidence of that; even if they gave him commands they opened fire before he had a chance to react. The gun was a toy and even if it had been real, Crawford had done nothing illegal. Sometimes there’s nothing you can do, so giving advice is useless. (Some people might also object to the servile attitude you are suggesting people adopt when dealing with the police, but I don’t think that will matter to you.)
You know who is supposed to be trained to deal with all manner of situations and keep their calm to make quick, accurate decisions even in moments of great stress? The police!
Then we may as well all give up now.
Yes, it was reasonable. And it got him shot, because he was dealing with a person who wasn’t reasonable. The take-away here being that you can’t always assume right away that you’re dealing with a reasonable person, and it would behoove you to be hyper-reasonable, especially when dealing with someone who theoretically has the lawful authority to shoot you dead.
And the victim did behave reasonably - when the officer did start shooting, he put his hands up. That gesture probably saved his life and it’s probably the reason the officer fired three times and hit him once in the hip instead of firing until his magazine was empty. If he’d done otherwise he might be dead now, but it still wouldn’t be any less the officer’s fault.
Accepting that some shit is out of your control is part of becoming an adult. What should happen in this situation - rather than coming up with endless lists of instructions for civilians just in case they run across a violent idiot cop - is making sure the police are held to appropriate standards. Like most of the people in this thread already said, we’ve seen so many situations like this recently that it’s actually a relief that this cop was fired and is being prosecuted.
This is the logical conclusion. If what this guy did was unreasonable in cautious then there’s really no way to be sufficiently cautious without shooting first.
Which is all well and good, but to the person who’s been shot it’s small comfort to say “Well, they should have been held to appropriate standards”.
You are missing the point, unsurprisingly. You should not have to use condoms to avoid disease, therefore anyone who says that condoms reduce disease transmission is blaming the victim.
Have you taken leave of your sense? No it isn’t. The universe works a lot more off “is” and “isn’t” than “should” and “shouldn’t”.
Regards,
Shodan
Seldom is a point missed in such spectacular fashion.
Yeah, it’s much more comforting to tell them how they should have tried harder not to get shot.
I have never in my life warned the officer before reaching for the glove compartment to get my registration and proof of insurance. And, I’ve gotten plenty of tickets in multiple states. But, then again, I’m a white guy, so I probably won’t get shot for showing him a wallet or a registration card.
If I was in that guy’s shoes and had just stepped out of my car and had the cop tell me to get my license, I would have reacted exactly as that guy reacted – turned around to the get my wallet out of the car. Why would I suspect he was ready to shoot me? Again, though, I’m a white guy.
I think everyone here is sufficiently clear on your position. Is there some reason you’ve said more or less the same thing at least ten times? Do you believe repetition makes you righter?
It did save his life, and that’s not “reason.” What you’re seeing is a reflex action because he is panicking and desperate, and it’s fucking terrifying. His life is out of his hands and he’s hoping for mercy. He actually apologizes to the cop several times after being shot. I’ll chalk it up to shock even though to be honest it sort of looks like the kind of thing happened in a world created by Smapti.
It’s not supposed to comfort them. It’s intended to keep society working. What’s supposed to comfort them is firing and prosecuting the bad cops, doing what you can to make sure this kind of shit doesn’t happen, and oh yes, there’s the forthcoming lawsuit. But I’m not trying to provide false comfort, at least. Is your house full of bullshit homeopathic remedies? They work on the same kind of logic you’re employing here: ‘this is the only way to make 100% certain something bad won’t happen!’ It’s all crap, of course. It doesn’t protect you, and telling people they can protect themselves from random or unforeseeable events is dishonest and stupid.
The way police are becoming militarized and trigger happy it might be increasingly wise to add even more caution to one’s interactions with them.
Of course these days they might just burst into your house and shoot you anyway, so who knows.