Would you say a German person is white or black in terms of skin color? If you say he’s white, then it would be a white guy playing Steve Jobs.
If I saw whoever the heck it was who played him, I probably wouldn’t know or guess he was German, or Icelandic, or British, or Australian, or French, or American unless someone told me. Whereas if he was black, I’d immediately think “Oh, they made him black? Steve Jobs wasn’t black in real life, though…”
Do you recognize that this is due to social conditioning, most likely? Say there were two actors, one that looked nothing like Jobs, except that he was “white” (big difference in height, facial features, etc.), and one that looked a lot like Jobs (same height, similar facial features, etc., except for skin color) but fit into the social category of “black”, would you have the same reaction? If you or anyone would react as you describe in your second paragraph (that is, noting the difference in race of the actor and Jobs as somehow significant, even if you don’t disapprove in any way), then I think this is due to social conditioning that ultimately can be traced from historical white supremacism.
Have what reaction?
If you mean, would I have a problem with someone who didn’t look like Jobs playing him, then no. I would be fine with either of those two examples playing him.
In fact–and this is where I think some of the misunderstanding is coming from–I would be fine with ANYONE playing Steve Jobs regardless of gender/color/size/etc.
I’m just saying “Don’t be surprised if Jobs is played by a white guy if he was white in real life” and “Don’t accuse others of being racist if they cast a white guy as him”. It doesn’t have to be “because they’re racist”…it could be “because they want to be as factually correct as possible to real life history”.
The “Oh, they made him black? Steve Jobs wasn’t black in real life, though…” reaction. In my view, that’s a reaction that is ultimately sourced from social conditioning about race. I’d probably have the same reaction, but I think it’s important to recognize why we have these reactions. I wouldn’t bat an eye at a short actor playing Jobs, but for some reason it would “feel” slightly different for a black actor to play him… even though being short is just as insignificant of a superficial difference as being black as far as a performance of a character like Jobs.
Right, I get this. But it’s still interesting to explore why we have different reactions to black actors playing white roles as opposed to, say, short actors playing taller roles or vice versa.
Sure, but “black actor the same height as Jobs” is just as “factually correct” as “white actor of a different height then Jobs”. The difference is just social conditioning – that we have been socially conditioned to see differences in race as somehow more significant then differences in height, or other superficial differences.
Using height as a comparison, consider Hugh Jackman playing Wolverine. Endless gnashing of teeth before the first movie, but now in hindsight does anyone still have a problem with it?
(Don’t even get me started on John Constantine. HE’S BLONDE!!! THE WHOLE THING IS RUINED BECAUSE HE’S SUPPOSED TO BLONDE!!!11!!!one)
EDIT: Though in fairness to the discussion, nerds appear to be particularly racist, what with all the outrage over a black stormtrooper. And fangirls appear to be overly racist as well, considering the outrage over a black girl playing a black girl in Hunger Games.
I get what you’re saying…it’s a good point…
…but many people are not going to know things like “What was Steve Jobs height?” Some might, but I’m thinking more are going to, at least, know “Steve Jobs wasn’t black”. Do you get what I’m saying now; my point?
So while you say “black guy/same height” is about as equal as “white guy/different height”, people are going to be more apt to notice the “different color” inaccuracy rather than the “different height” one, because it’s MORE PROMINENT and one you can see immediately, without much guessing.
When I look at a guy, I can’t always guess or estimate how tall they are, but I can immediately say if they are white or black. 
Right, I get your point, but even this is due to social conditioning. Why can we tell that Boris Kodjoe is “black”? He’s half-“white”, but we immediately see him as a tall, handsome, black guy. We’ve been socially conditioned to see someone that looks like him as “black” – but there’s no good, intrinsic reason why this is so, or why we’d feel slightly odd for a moment if Kodjoe was cast as Jobs, but not if Paul Giamatti was.
If our history were significantly different, then height differences might trigger these sorts of reactions – race differences might not get any reaction from us at all, but we’d be so socially tuned to height differences that we’d feel a bit weird if a shorter guy played a tall guy in a movie, or vice versa.
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Whereas if he was black, I’d immediately think “Oh, they made him black? Steve Jobs wasn’t black in real life, though…”
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…you know, if that was your reaction, that would be okay.
But this was your actual reaction:
This whole thing started because brickbacon asked the question “I can see what you are saying here, but why exactly must Steve Jobs be played by a White actor?”
Your reaction to his hypothetical was “They are played by white actors because they were white people”. That response right there was enough to make my jaw drop. You appear to be ignorant of Hollywoods history of casting white people in roles that “factually” should have gone to people of colour. Hollywood has a very long history of not getting things right, of not being factual, of turning history upside down. You really should be used to that by now. But merely suggest casting a black person as a white person and you get the vapours. It wasn’t even a serious suggestion, just a question.
It is your “gut reaction” that people are responding too. Not your attempts to “walk it back”.
Who in the thread has done this? Who anywhere has done this? What a strawman. A white person was actually cast as Steve Jobs and no-one did jack shit. So if this is your actual concern: don’t worry about it. Because it didn’t happen. White person getting cast as a white person is not news.
Imagine, if you will, that we grew up reading about all kinds of social strife and conflict between people of differing heights – that there were periods in which tall people enslaved short people, and then after they were freed, society still discriminated against short people in a lot of ways.
With such a history, we could be all hung up on height differences between an actor and their role; and we could be discussing another “tall” Oscars - does it matter?, while ignoring and dismissing race or skin color differences as entirely not notable. 
Yep, to which I answered (in my first sentence in the post) “Because he was white in real life.” The rest of it was expanding on that answer, giving other examples of things that would make a movie inaccurate if it were based on a real, historical person.
Brickbacon seems to, since he has said that casting white actors to play real life people who were white is related to racism (here’s the cite, last sentence), when I have already pointed out it could very well be that they just want to be as accurate in the story as possible.
I disagree. If I show you a photo of someone of average height, which are you going to be able to guess first: How tall he may be or whether he is black or white?
Another example of physical disconnects unrelated to race: Tom Cruise playing Jack Reacher. It would have been much less jarring if they’d cast someone like Michael Clark Duncan to play him.
Well, I suppose we can’t be 100% positive, inasmuch as we can’t read casting director’s minds, but I’m pretty sure if you told a studio their profits would be massively increased by casting one actor instead of another, they’d instantly cast the guy that makes them the most money, regardless of race. (Which isn’t, of course what I’m suggesting is happening, but the industry standard is to have one or two non-whites per movie, maximum, and that standard means going against the trend takes a conscious effort and some level of risk). It’s possible that all the major Hollywood players are incredibly racist, but it seems much more likely to me that they’re after profits, given that that is what everything else in Hollywood is centered around.
I don’t think catering to racists is functionally any better than being racist, but understanding the motivations behind the widespread hesitancy to cast minorities is the first step in fixing the problem. If I’m right, and money is the main factor, a widespread demonstration of the public’s willingness to not care about actor’s races should help; successes of productions with diverse casts, like Hamilton, could actually send a pretty clear message. To be honest, I think hit creative works with diverse casting will do more to change that mindset of white being “default” than social media outcries over the Oscars; social media seems to get outraged at everything these days, but only for a very brief period of time.
I would probably put that down to the prequels. Remember, when the first trailers for The Force Awakens came out, the last two Star Wars movies and all the cartoons made it an important plot point that the original Stormtroopers were all clones of the same New Zealander guy - it’s how the army was raised, and it was how Palpatine wiped out the Jedi. So when the first thing people saw was a Stormtrooper who was not Temuera Morrison or someone who could pass as a younger Temuera Morrison, the casual fans probably thought that somebody screwed up.
And Tom Cruise in Edge of Tomorrow too. I still haven’t watched that movie because it’s obvious that instead of trying to justify him being a new recruit with a solid foundation of bullshit, they should have just picked an actor half his age.
…I don’t need to be reminded as to what your answer was as I not only quoted it (twice) and I commented on it as well.
Yet you snip the commentary and just respond with what I’ve reminded you twice about. Why would you do that?
Absolute bollocks. Brickbacon does not “seem too.” What he said:
This does not equal = "“Don’t accuse others of being racist if they cast a white guy as him”. It doesn’t have to be “because they’re racist”…it could be “because they want to be as factually correct as possible to real life history”. Especially in context with what he said just a paragraph before:
There is no indication that Brickbacon is going to start calling the people who cast Steve Jobs racist. Its a strawman and really lazy debating, especially from someone who really should know better.
There is a double standard playing out. But you keep ignoring it, even to the extent of deleting it from my reply. When are you going to actually acknowledge it?
For us, it’s race. But my point is that this is social conditioning – again, how do you know that Boris Kodjoe is “black”? Why isn’t he “white”, even though one of his parents is?
If we had a different history, then it’s entirely possible that height (or some other superficial characteristic) could be the focus of intense social conditioning, and the concept of race would be much more nebulous (if it even existed). In such a history, people could be socially conditioned to “know” how tall someone is, or what “height category” they fit into, analogous to our races, and could mostly ignore race or skin color.
There’s no legitimate reason why we consider Kodjoe “black” instead of “white”, or why we consider the half-Korean half-black singer Amerie “black” instead of “Korean”, except for social conditioning. And I hold that it’s social conditioning that triggers that “huh, it’s a black actor playing a white guy” reaction as somehow more significant then an actor with very different facial features, or some other superficial characteristic.
Because that is what I said.
Brickbacon has said it’s related to racism, which isn’t a far leap to say “people who have a problem with this is racist” which is the premise this whole entire topic was started about…and that utterly ridiculous, because it has nothing to do with racism at all.
In fact, He’s doing exactly what you just said nobody in this thread has done.
You said…
Bolding mine.
Yes, I agree with this. And I said the exact same thing in this post of mine.
“My main point, however, is wondering why on earth someone would seem to be upset that someone white is playing someone else in history who is also white … it has nothing to do with racism at all”
Brickbacon says to that exact line:
So you’re wrong, Banquet Bear. He did say there exactly what you just said “nobody in this thread has said”. You say nobody gives jack shit about it, but that’s what I was saying in that post and Brick replied to it saying it did, in fact, matter to racism.
To put more simple (and I’m summing up here, not using exact words):
Me: Why did someone cast a white guy as Jobs? Because Jobs was white. This should not be surprising and it’s a stretch to say it’s related to racsim.
Brickbacon: It IS related to racism
Me: It doesn’t have to be because of racism…it could be "because they want to be as factually correct as possible to real life history
You (to my line right above this one): Nobody has said that. White person getting cast as a white person is not news.
Uh, yes…someone did say it.
Me: Why did someone cast a white guy as Jobs? Because Jobs was white. This should not be surprising and it’s a stretch to say it’s related to racsim.
Brickbacon: It IS related to racism <------ Right There
Me: It doesn’t have to be because of racism…it could be "because they want to be as factually correct as possible to real life history
You (to my line right above this one): Nobody has said that. White person getting cast as a white person is not news.
…well we know at least have a compressive record of exactly what you said.
He actually said “Of course it’s related to racism or at the very least racial bias.”
Ignoring the qualifier is actually changing the meaning.
But this isn’t what he actually said. You just made it up.
You mean this little diversion, or the the thread? Because the thread is about the Oscars.
You personally can’t make the conceptual leap to accept a black actor playing a white role. What do you call that?
No he isn’t.
Did you read his response to your musings? I quoted it in the previous post. I’ll quote it again: “There is your misunderstanding. No one here seems to be upset by it. It doesn’t keep me up at night. However, it is important to acknowledge the double standard, and to acknowledge that it has real consequences for actors of color.”
He isn’t upset. The whole point of bringing this up is to highlight the double standard Hollywood has of having no problem casting white people as people of colour, but protest people of colour being cast as white people because “its not factual.” And because of this double standard, people of colour get less work in Hollywood. Prominent roles for Asian actors rarely come up. And when those roles do come up: and those roles are given to white actors,
No he didn’t say what you claim he said. You have to make a “far leap” with his actual words to come up with the twisted version that you came up with. You ignored his actual words, you ignored the context at which the words were used, you ignored the qualifiers that he used when he said “it’s related to racism”.
I can see that nuance is not your specialty, so let me correct your summation to more accurately reflect what I said:
You: Why did someone cast a white guy as Jobs? Because Jobs was white. This should not be surprising and it’s a stretch to say it’s related to racsim.
Brickbacon: It’s not a stretch. The fact that a White actor was cast to play a White person is completely typical. What is problematic is that the rationale for nearly 100% of the time saying a White person MUST be played by a White actor while at the same time allowing for non-Whites to be played by White actors is a double standard that has everything to do with racial bias.
It has nothing to do with accuracy given actors are by and large not vetted for their nationality, height, weight, hair style, personality, background, education, or a thousand other things that would make their portrayal more “accurate”. Now as you stated, Jobs being played by Kutcher or Fassbender doesn’t mean the casting director is de facto racist. No one has argued that. What I am saying is that racial biases are what guides these rules. It’s why you think casting an actor of a different race is a lie but casting one of a different nationality is fine. It’s because you see one thing as integral to a person and the other as something you can get over. That’s bias, not some misplaced allegiance to accuracy.