Hell, I think the church that put out the original sign should add that last line to it, because you’re 100% correct. He had to die. That is reflected in all the teachings of the Church.
If you believe that the Bible is a record of history, then there’s nothing wrong with saying that the Jews were complicit in Jesus’ death. They essentially gave him up to the Romans. That’s pretty much indisputable, and as it happens a necessary element in the story of Jesus. Hell, the first Pope denied him three times, and he’s revered, so what’s the difference? Of course, if you believe the Bible is a work of fiction, then it’s just a story. Big deal.
Robin and I (who are Catholic and Jewish, respectively) have had this discussion many times. And the fact is, people who are Anti-Semitic don’t need this for an excuse, because as excuses go this is bullshit. The Jews played the role that was required of them. That’s no reason to hate them. Nor is their lack of belief in Jesus-as-God, because I think we all know what would happen if someone walked around saying he was the Son of God. He’d be denounced as a nutcase. So their reticence to accept that as truth is perfectly legitimate.
I believe in Jesus as much because of indoctrination as plausibility. It’s simply a tenet of faith. If you don’t believe there’s no shame in that.
I’m now atheist but was raised a Christian. I respect others’ beliefs. In fact, I attend the Methodist church these days because I take my elderly father, who gets a lot out of it. Anyway, I’m completely perplexed by the whole folderol, because the answer to the above question was always clear to me in my upbringing:
You should identify yourself further than Orthodox. Orthodox Jews certainly do not subsribe in any way to this belief. Nor do any Jews for that manner.
Without Jesus dying and rising from the dead, there would be nowhere near the belief that there is now, if any belief at all.
In church, every Sunday the priest intones “Let us proclaim the mystery of faith”, to which everyone responds “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again”. Given that that is a major tenet of faith (and was probably the best proof he could have given, not to mention the fact that he welcomed it with open arms), I think it’s safe to say that he had to die.
CheekyMonkey613, I would think that in this case the word “orthodox” means “standard” or “generally accepted”, especially since it is lower case. It only gets specific if paired with another noun, hence your “Orthodox Jews” or “Orthodox Christians” Kind of like the word catholic does not refer to religion, but means “comprehensive, broad in taste or sympathies” Example: “He had a catholic taste in literature.”
As others have stated, our sins are the reason Jesus died. Some Jewish officials were complicit in his death, but that doesn’t mean Jews are to blame, anymore than the descendants of the Roman soldiers who did the actual execution. (Those same officials who wanted Jesus dead weren’t allowed to execute, according to Roman occupational law). For those ignorant bigots who use Christ’s death as a reason for anti-Jewish feeling, remember, Jesus himself was a Jew. Mary was a Jew. All the disciples were Jewish!
One more tangent, more suited to Cafe Society I suppose. Any Babylon 5 fans out there?(I’m more of a B5 fanatic) There was an episode in season 3 titled “Passing Through Gethsemane”, in which a Catholic monk, Brother Edward, explains to Ambassador Delenn what he understands to be the core belief of Christianity. As Edward put it, it was that Jesus knew what was going to happen to him, he was very afraid of the pain and suffering that would occur, and he could have put it off if he’d wanted, maybe even avoided it altogether. But he made the choice to go through with the whole affair, in order to atone for the sins of others. My favorite episode actually.
I’d just like to say that whatever they’re paying the movie’s PR guys, it ain’t enough. Fucking brilliant work drumming up so much shit even before the ad campaign gets going.
Judging by what the Boston Globe’sAlex Beam has to say about how it’s been promoted, you don’t know the half of it.
MsRobyn, I always thought the blood was a better binder than milk or eggs for the cookies’ dry ingredients, if you had any left over from the borscht. I find a coffee grinder works great for the bones.
Isn’t the real point simply that jews were at the relevant time and place “the public”? In other words, OK, yes maybe the people responsible for Jesus’
death were jewish, but wasn’t that just an accident of where he was? He lived in a jewish country, so the public were jewish. If the whole thing had happened in Ozsubistanville where they practice gwishery, you could blame the gwishers for his death. It’s just happenstance.
I though that Pilate had offered the crowd of Jews a choice of who to spare: Jesus or Barabas.
Barabas, who was to be crucified for killing a Roman Soldier, was looked upon as something of a rebel and hero, especially to those in the crowd at the time.
Or did I totally mess that up? Or get that from a bad movie?
Seriously blaming Jews for the death of Jesus would suggest that Jesus was a fraud and we’re all DOUBLE GASP still Jews!
God: all-knowing, all-powerful. By definition, God’s plan (if there is one) works.
Jesus: divine being, SOG.
Would the divine being have to trick his (only) divine son into being killed by Jews so morons could later justify hatred? That’s the best he could do? What, if Jesus had known he would have said “fuck it”? The bald guy from that HBO comedy show…David Cross…said it best, “the crucifixion MADE JESUS.”
Mel Gibson: Great timing, buddy. Nothing is as good as cashing in on controversy, hatred, and blind faith.
Very well-stated. One of my major problems, as an atheist, with the whole Jesus concept - God could’ve simply snapped his fingers and declared humanity’s slate clean. So the whole Jesus thing was more of a publicity stunt than anything else.
Please, humorous though they may be, remarks like that one do not help the fight against ignorance.
The blood of Christian children is used in making food for Passover. We first find an unbaptized Christian child (For a long time, there was debate about the maximum age of the child. Then Maimonides settled the issue in his Guide To The Perplexed. The child must not have started puberty yet. Thus, maximum allowable age depends on the kid’s diet and other factors.). We torture the child by telling it there is no Santa and by forcefeeding it the jelly gefilte fish comes in. We then gut the child with a knife made from melted crucifixes. In olden days, the organs were used in salami, kishke, or knishes. Now, these organs are transplanted into our Learned Elders so that they can continue to lead our crusade of evil. The bones and skin of the child are mailed to Israel, where they are planted under a sapling by the Plant A Tree In Israel foundation. The blood is used to make matzo.
This killing is a sacred act continuing the Paschal sacrifice. The seder, a ritual meal, includes the youngest person present asking the other guests four ritual questions. This is to remind us that all our children must be trained to resist questioning when the authorities come looking for the missing gentile. An extra cup of wine is poured for the prophet Elijah. This represents the village elder who would visit each house warning of the police, making sure everybodies alibis matched and so forth. Finally the adults hide a piece of matzo and the children look for it. This symbolizes our hiding of Christian corpses and that even a small, Jewish child is smarter than the average adult goy.
:sigh: My family moved to Florida and it just won’t be the same without them.
If it is considered fair and unbaised, then that is a manifestation of what you believe to be true right?
Im not Christian, I am not a Jew, nor am I an Italian. But I will not see this movie because I think that it is shamelessly irresponsible, and yet another monumental move to manipulate the emotions of the masses in for extreme monitary gain.
Hollywood is a intellectual wasteland…but they know how to pander to the lowest common denominator.
I disagree. That flies in the face of the whole concept of free will. Jesus was a way of God inserting himself into humanity in a way that didn’t interfere with humanity. If he just snapped his fingers and said “Poof! You’re all absolved! No go forth and sin no more” it would have been God imposing his will on people, whereas in the case of Jesus you’re free to either believe or not believe.
