Anyone else tired of sports in public schools?

**

Don’t blame me if you choose to use it in a way most people do not. Just like most people don’t consider debate to be a sport.

**

It all goes together. Your irrational hatred has caused you to become blinded by rage. But what the hell, maybe I’m wrong.

[QUOTE]
[URL=“http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=irrational”]

OK…so in general, let’s talk right down to Earth, in a language that everyone here can easily understand.

**

Your dislike of all jocks is not rational. But then you’re defining jocks as someone who acts with to much machismo not just someone in athletics. Therefore a jock to you could be some guy not connected to any sport. But you’ve never made any effort in the past to seperate jocks from sports. “I was tortured, beaten, kicked, hit, taunted, teased, had my property stolen, broken, etc. by mexicans in my high school. My dislike, if I had such a thing, thus has a reason behind it.” You may have a reason to dislike jocks and organized sports but that doesn’t make it rational.

**

Perhaps you’re perfectly clear. There were others here who disliked “jocks” and sports that I did not feel had any irrational hatred in spite of the fact that I thought they were wrong. So perhaps it is simply something I’ve attributed to you in specific.

**

Your dislike of jocks is irrational though understandable.

**

Your definition? No. But since most people relate jocks to some sport I don’t think I was way off base. You’ve certainly not said anything in the past that would suggest you didn’t fit jocks in with those involved in organized sports. If you did then I must have missed it. How many jocks bothered you in high school who weren’t in team sports? I’ve never heard you mention them before.

**

You know to be honest with you sometimes I worry about seeming to arrogant, not a nice person, or someone who just doesn’t care. But I’ve gotta call things how I see them. And no I don’t think you’re some evil wicked witch of the west.

You didn’t use words like “jocks must die” because you’re not an asshole. What names have I called you? When did I imply that you were mentally unstable? We’ve all got irrational feelings at one point or another but that doesn’t make us mentally unstable.

Marc

This is an update to my OP. I apologize for its length, but sincerely hope that those of you who followed this threat will read it. Thanks for noticing.

OK, I made a post a long time ago when I was very frustrated because my HS debate team got next to no money to go to tournaments. I was very pleased with the level of support that I received, but there were a number of posts that I feel represented points of view that need to be addressed. What the posters said was often very convincing, but I feel that things should be cleared up.

Lincoln - Douglas debate is not something that should be taken lightly as just casual arguing. It has very strict rules, according to very strict concepts, and is done in front of judges. A person’s skill at debate is not directly attached to their skill at casual arguing. In fact, it takes most students around two years to reach a level of comfort with the concept of lincoln-douglas debate to even put up “varsity” level rounds.

THEREFORE: It is very difficult to find competition. Many posters questioned my stated need to leave town every time we have a tournament. This is your explanation. I live in the northern end of minnesota, in a cluster of the state where there are approximately 3 debate teams within 100 miles of eachother. Beyond that, we must travel to the Twin Cities or to North Dakota (where the debate programs are doing quite well) to face a decent level of competition.

Also, many posters questioned the fact that our debate programs uses hotels whenever it is not possible to house with a “native” debate team. There are many reasons for this that people living in certain parts of the country would likely not foresee. Being in the midwest, people are scattered enough where everyone is travelling to tournaments, therefore there are absolutely never enough houses to support the influx of debaters. Second, please note that we are staying at extremely cheap (and often scary and sticky) hotels, putting at least 4 kids in each room, and getting a huge group discount.

Another issue that should be addressed is quite simple. We use a bus instead of my car primarily because we combine transportation with the other high school in town. We easily fill this coach bus, making it the most efficient means of transportation available.


OK, it’s very possible, in fact it’s a certainty, that I’m beating a dead horse here. But now that my season has come to an end I feel compelled to provide an update. Two members of my team qualified to the national tournament in Oklahoma City. While I understand that this is a very substantial expense and do not expect the school system to understand my desire for full funding of this trip, I think that people should be aware of what is going on.

My situation: I have two students who qualified for the national forensic league’s national tournament. This is a tremendous honor and is the goal that all forensics students are shooting for. Put simply, when my students put forth the enormous amount of effort to have a chance to compete amongst the nation’s best, WE ARE GOING TO ATTEND THE TOURNAMENT. One of my students is wheelchair bound.

So, I smile inwardly to myself at what I am getting into and do what I do every year. I let the activities director know that I’ll be needing to take the big Dodge Ram van to oklahoma city. This van has no air conditioning, but I’m willing to make the sacrifice. (Side note: when the hockey team qualified for state in mid winter in northern minnesota, they rented them suburbans that had air conditioning to make the 150 mile trip. When we qualified for nationals in St. Louis in June, we took the Ram w/o air conditioning.) Anyway, the activities director informs me that we cannot take the van. In fact, the school is severing all attachment to the nationals tournament.

Here’s what this means to me:

All I wanted was to take the van. The kids were going to raise funds for lodging, etc. I was going to pay for at least half of it out of my own pocket. We simply wanted the crappy van that can take on a wheelchair. No dice. So, instead, we are forced to RENT a vehicle. Unfortunately, said vehicle cannot be wheelchair accesible. So, the disabled student has to go with her parents to OKC. Myself and the ONE student have to put up money to pay to drive accross the country in a rental.

Meanwhile, I drive by the brand new state-of-the-art baseball facility on my way to work every day.

Guys, I know that debate costs the system a lot of money. I know that we don’t bring in any cash like football and hockey do. But I also know that we bring in something much more important: we teach kids not only how to think for THEMSELVES and study independently, we teach them tolerance like no classroom can. Every day, they listen to and work with other kids and respectfully represent their points of view. They are required to debate either side of a very volatile issue, allowing them to fully appreciate the origins of both arguments.

And on a semi-personal note, it can show kids that they can do something they didn’t think they could do. Kids that do poorly in math, art, music, etc. can be astounding orators. I have not only seen it in my students but consider myself to be a classic example. I barely passed just about every class I took in high school, and the only thing that allowed me to maintain faith in myself and my own intelligence and ability was the fact that I was very much respected in the debate and speech community. If we lose our forensics programs, many schools will have next to nothing to give kids an oppurtunity to practice verbal skills.

OK. That was a rant. Thanks for reading, and if anyone out there is in OKC and wants to show me around when I’m in town, drop me a line. :wink:

  • Rog

I think what really cheeses most people off about sports (myself included) is that in a lot of places the sports teams don’t have to work that hard to raise money. All they have to do is say, “The football team is having its annual fart knocking sale (or whatever) to raise money this Saturday at the bowling alley.” and thousands of people show up, meanwhile, the band students have to go door to door begging people to buy oranges. At my high school, (and I grew up in what was a very small town: pop. <5,000) the football team, which only had one season where they won more than TWO games never had to do anything to raise money, but the band, which won the state championships always had to be out there pimping itself to get some small donation from the community. Now, imagine the people who were not only in band, but other activities as well, who had to spend huge amounts of time raising money so that they could participate in something they enjoyed, that sucks. Sports do serve an important role in a person’s education and personal development, but we tend to raise atheletes up to a god-like level, while disparaging other activities equally worth while. That’s just stupid. I don’t care how much money the football team brings in (And at my high school it really wasn’t that much. Most of the people there were there to see the band play!), any school activity should get equal coverage as the atheletic ones. If that were the case, then fewer people would be bitching about how much money the football team got. The problem is, football looks great on TV and the movies, debates rarely do. Until someone finds a way to make a debate look as exciting to most people as a football game, football’s going to be king.

I was on the Golf Team at my school this year. Just wanted to tell all you people that are ranting over this, that our team raised all our funds for our golf shirts and bags. the only thing we used school funds for was the gas.

If you want some more money to spend, why not try to raise it in a fundraiser instead of whining for handouts?

shagadelic, I’m assuming you didn’t see Tuckerfan’s post; it must not have been up when you were posting.

Fundraisers are a great idea…except that people usually say, “Gee, I’d love to give to the band/debate team/choir/math team, but I’m all tapped out after donating to football and basketball.” It isn’t just the schools that have this mindset; it’s the communities.

Face it. If your activity doesn’t take place on a field or in a gym, no one’s interested.

Sir, I would absolutely love it if I could get my school to just pay for the gas. I don’t think you get this.

Beyond that in a note that has probably occured to most already, I would be remiss to not point out that there is nothing wrong with whining for handouts from a school when it comes to financing a child’s education. I think that that is their purpose. So, I will merrily continue to whine.

  • Rog

PS - We do fundraisers constantly. Debate teams bring much less PR than a golf team.

Well, you can’t change the way people think and if they want to give to athletics, then let them give to athletics. Don’t try to make it illegal.

And then people wonder why America is getting so stupid.

In this country, we look down on intellect. We praise only money and sports. Who cares how well educated you are-it’s how much money you make. Professional athletes make millions, while teachers make a pittance, as do nurses. MY GOD, what is WRONG with society?

Pittsburgh-we really could stand to have our roads fixed-instead, we get corporate welfare to build two brand new unneeded stadiums. It fucking SUCKS.

I guess that’s not so much a dismissal of sport as it is an expression of abject ignorance of same. Live and learn, MsRobyn.

I was largely a bencher in h.s. football (did much better in wrestling) and I learned plenty: persistence, hard work, discipline, pride in myself even if I couldn’t quite meet the expectations of others. And teamwork is all the more constant a lession when one isn’t even remotely a star. It’s been my experience that the biggest stars were the last to understand the true nature of teamwork.

Though it might not appear so, it’s not just for the benefit of the top echelon players.

I don’t doubt that for a second.

I started out in high school as a total wallflower. Mister Anonymous. I blended into the furniture and as a result I didn’t exactly burn up the honor rolls, either. Tried out for wrestling and later football. As a result of the confidence that came from exploring that previously untouched aspect of life, I applied myself harder in other avenues.

There’s something to be said for the discipline taught in sport. In college, I made the Dean’s List twice… both times during wrestling season when I was also taking 16-20 units of electronics, computer science, business and English courses on top of team practices and solo workouts four to six hours a day–plus being on the road much of the time. (My best friend on the team is now an environmental engineer and works as the liason between the Federal EPA and that of the State of California.)

Also in college I got a chance to substitute-teach three Astronomy courses for which I’d been a T.A. I got up in front of seventy, eighty people for two hours (with Q&A sessions). That’s something I’d not likely have done if I hadn’t gotten into sports and performed in front of bleachers full of people… and learned to face my fears.

A condescending attitude that gets turned back on itself beautifully with:

It appears that Reminiscing About the Big Game is contagious. Hehehe…

Am I posting a blanket defense of sports? No. Sport attracts the alphas of the species as well as the betas and the gamma-minuses. Sport attracts scholars as well as dummies, and gentlefolk as well as bullies. My remarks aren’t meant as any justification for the disparity in funding between sports and academics. It’s simply that I’m seeing some grossly oversimplified self-serving generalizations about sports… ridiculous generalizations that dishonor the very activity being championed in this thread.

Are sports elitist? It might seem so from the cheap seats, but it sure didn’t turn out that way for me and numerous friends.

And Pepper? Impressive, but I’m not sure if:

…is supposed to be an advertisement for the glories of forensics or a plea for more funding with which to upgrade the quality of said activity. Good (though ambiguous) job. :rolleyes:

I think you have just defined the term “elitist”.

To you and your friends on the team, things were great. The people in the cheap seats may have thought differently. And at the risk of being overdramatic, it’s not too difficult to extend the thought to people with and without food, health care, and housing.

On page 1 of this post I made the claim that high school athletics, as they are commonly practiced, are elitist because they involve only SOME of the students. Those who can’t make the team are cut, which would be fine with me if there was another place to play. Intramurals, or a club team maybe. Many schools have no such option. More often, the fact is that when kids are cut they have no other place to play.

That’s elitist.

And I’m a coach, by the way. :slight_smile:

Sorry for the italics. I should really preview.

I see. And there aren’t standards for forensics teams?

You forgot to mention world peace.

Overdramatic? You win the Bela Lugosi Award for the day.

Amusingly enough, Carl Sagan makes a case for sports in an early chapter of his last book Billions and Billions.

Of course, I’m not using that to argue for or against any specific point. Just tossing it out for fodder.

Just making sure I use language that even the jocks can understand, is all.

Very clever! However, I await a refutation of my statement.

And as for your previous question about whether there are standards for debating teams, I’m not sure. At my school, it functions as a club. Nobody is turned away. And that is my main point - I want kids to be able to participate. What’s the point of leaving kids out.

Standards are fine. As I have said previously (twice, in fact), I would have no problem with JV and Varsity sports as long as the kids who want to play have a place to do so. The fact that PUBLIC schools exclude kids from even playing if they are not good enough to make the varsity is wrong.

I agree with Grok. I cannot speak for football, but I can speak for cross country, as I am the coach at our HS. Many teams in our district have both a varsity and a junior varsity team (and some have a freshman team). The six top runners from each school compete on the varsity, while the remaining runners race after the “real” race. No one is turned away from cross country. Bus rides, uniforms, etc. are always provided for all of the kids.

It would be wonderful if the debate teams got the same consideration. But they don’t, unfortunately, while the athletic teams do. This is wrong, but it does not strike me as a reason to hate athletes.

The football team I played on didn’t have a cut policy… which is why I managed to be on the team despite not knowing a whit about the game and competing with kids who’d been playing since PeeWee League. A second-string DB/punt-returner weighed 118 pounds.

Pretty much the same for each and every wrestling team I was ever on. In high school, my particular weight division was six deep. Every position but first-string was considered JV, and everyone got to wrestle in intermural competition. That’s the way it reportedly was at the competing schools, too. Once, when recovering from a severe illness, I got bumped down to JV my first match back. The kid I was to wrestle said during our pre-match handshake, “Please don’t pin me.” Sounds like they had a pretty elitist and exclusionary process going on at their school, right?

Now, about that world peace…

Well, take comfort in the fact that even if you undershot the jocks, you certainly connected with the unquenched monosyllabic rage of schoolyard killers everywhere.

I’m sure your forensics coach/instructor is so proud right now.

So does marching band, and it doesn’t involve beating the crap out of other people either. Plus, of course, you learn a musical instrument, have a constructive goal, and are much less likely to be injured (unless you’re in the wrong place and get clocked by the sousaphone, I suppose). And how often do you hear about band members taking steroids?

…And yet music departments all over the country are first on the budget chopping block…