Anyone else tired of sports in public schools?

[Bear_Nenno]

Anthracite,

Fair is fair. He didn’t claim, imply, or hint any such thing. Other people did - address them

Fair enough. I admit, I got messages from the OP that just weren’t there. In fact, my original reply to you was “. I will back up how I arrived at him being ‘unathletic’ when he backs up how he arrived at me being ‘unintelligent’.” I went back to the OP to get an exact quote and realized he never did imply such a thing… so I had to change it. However, I still feel the reply is valid to some other posters who seem to accuse me of being both an abusive jock, a criminal, and a person who never did anything else in high school. To be fair: Rog I apologise for addressing those comments to you.

he didn’t say one thing derrogatory about athletics at all!

I see that now. In the title, I originally read “Anyone else tired of sports being in public schools”. I think I just read the rest of the post with that mindset- thinking this guy wanted sports out of schools because nothing was devine or inspirational as his debate team.

…people in support of organized athletics who are attacking him just need to calm down!

Correct! I think, though he made a minor complaint about not getting enough money for his debate team, I and others, took this as an attack against having sports in schools and an attack against athletes not being equal to the ‘mental sports’. Also, it seems there are others who are attacking the supporters of school sports as if we are the bullies the dealt with in high school. Sorry if you guys got picked on, or were not popular… but please do not take that out on me. It’s not right to hate someone for being a nerd, and it is also not right to hate someone for being a popular jock. It seem that latter is actually tolerated a bit more here though.

Reaper,

Think about it. Take 1% of the Football Team’s budget. Assuming $1,000,000 would be $10,000, and give it to the debate team.

First of all, I don’t think any individual school has a million dollar a year football budget. Next, let me put it this way:
Most everything bought for the athletic teams stay with the school. The items are bought for the school by the school. With the exception of mouth pieces, everything a player is supplied with must be turned back in at the end of the year. When equipment is bought, it serves many students. Every year a new player gets to wear the equipment and uniforms. These things are not replaced every year. Not even every five years. Players must buy personal things like cleats and any other specialty equipment out of their own money. Anything else we want, we have to pay for out of our booster money or parking lot fees or whatever else. If we went to state competition and stayed in a hotel, we would have to pay for the cost of staying in the hotel.
Cheerleaders and dancers get new uniforms every year. Each uniform is tailored to the individual girl and she keeps it at the end of the year. Plus they have practice uniforms, warm ups, other spirit outfits and other stuff. Since these are only used by ONE student, the cheerleaders have to buy their own uniforms. The school board does not pay for INDIVIDUAL EQUIPMENT OR EXPENSES. The cheerleaders have candy sales and car washes and stuff to raise money. The rest is all out of pocket.

Wimp. Try here or here.

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Hastur:
They learn to be competitive to the point that it is win or die. They don’t learn to win and lose gracefully, and are told that they have no worth if they don’t win by coaches and ‘fans.’ It doesn’t teach leadership, it teaches ruthless domination at the expense of everyone else.
…you testosterone poisoned neanderthal!

This is the crap I am talking about, Anthracite. Talk about hyperbole.

Originally posted by Hastur:
Plenty of us didn’t bother with sports for this reason

To me, this doesn’t sound like a reason, but rather just the excuse you gave people when they asked you why you never played. I can see you now telling everyone how great you were, you just chose not to play because of social objections. Sure… and I could play Bethoven’s 5th on a grand piano… I just choose not to. :rolleyes:

pepperlandgirl

You have no fucking clue do you? Not one.

Great pepper, thanks for assuming I have done nothing else with my life except football; that in high school, I only cared about football; and years from now I will be like Al Bundy telling everyone about my three touchdowns is a single game…
Of course I have a fucking clue! How? Well first of all, it sounds like your Forensics class/team/club whatever was very similar to the Criminal Justice class and CJ Club I was in, in high school. Surprise!! I actually did other shit too!!
We went to the annual Florida Public Service Association state competition. We spent several days in Ocala (80 miles away?) in a nice hotel. We had to PAY for this. The students in the class that could not afford to go, did not. Instead of fucking crying because all the popular kids get shit paid for by the school, we raised the money. After candy sales and other club fundraisers, the total cost per student was under $200. I don’t see a problem with this. I guess I could add to that: food, books, study materials clothes, personal hygeine products, or any other trivial items you put in your calculations… but I will just leave it at “under $200” Oh yeah, if you want to brag about awards: I made first place ‘brain bowl’ (waduya know, I was actually smart too), second place ‘forensic investigation’ and second place ‘firearms competition’. And don’t let me forget how well my friends did :rolleyes: My friend Danny was first place in the Obstacle Coarse, my friend Tico was first place in Traffic Stop, our school was first place in Community Service Project, and our school had first place in Scrap Book. Remember, this is a State Competition. Impressed?
My point: staying in the hotel and taking part in these competitions we individual luxaries so the individuals had to pay for it.

Do you understand the work and preperation that goes into these events?

Obviously I have show I do. I hope I did not forget to point out the fact that this competition came near the end of Class Capers. Class Capers is an intramural competition among the four classes. Student Council picks a theme and assigns them to each class. The class then has two months and $100 (anything else must be raised or out of pocket…) to write a script, make scenery, cast, reherse lines, etc.
Guess who wrote the play? Guess who designed the sets? Guess who directed? Guess who did all this, while preparing for state competition. And then who spent everyday on the phone speaking with everyone back home about how the last week was going, trying to make sure all the crap that had to be finished actually got done. And answering questions pertaining to certain scenes, props, or other questions and solving problems. And guess who’s class won? This is not at a small school. Small for our disctrict at 2500 students, but not small compared to most. It’s not like I did all this because there was only a small group of people…There were many people the class officers could have chosen to be in charge- hundreds! About a dozen people submitted script ideas… They chose me, and I did it because I was good at it, I was a natural leader, I enjoyed the hell out of it, I was intelligent and talented, and everyone knew and respected that. Or maybe I just used my dominant neanderthal mentality to force them into submission and declared my self alpha-jock.
So… what else were you doing while getting ready for state besides bitching about bills and expenses? I think I most cetainly DO get it. But I am glad you got a laugh earlier anyway.

We compete because we want to improve ourselves, and prepare for jobs as lawyers, teachers, etc. What we do will actually be worth something 10 years down the road. And in 20 years when we are not as young and fast as we used to be, we won’t bemoan our “glory years”.

I hope none of this is supposed to apply to me. Since first of all- guess whose a teacher RIGHT NOW! Guess who is persuing a life goal of being a law enforcement officer? If last weeks interview went as well as I think it did, I could be realising that goal very soon. Prepared? Let’s see hear: college degree, police academy graduate, Tampa Police Department Intern, Glock Pistol armorer, soon-to-be certified NRA Firearms Instructor. My “glory years” will be 10-15 years from now when my successful career makes me one of the best persons crimes detectives in the country. After retiring, I will “bemoan” the times I saved lives, told little children their step father will never again lay a finger on them, got rapists and child molesters and murders off the street… Hopefully my time as Captain of the Varsity football team did not degrade my ability to function in society.

MGibson,

Personall I’d love to see more kids involved in the arts and in athletics.[sic]

My GOD! I could not agree with you more. Your entire post was excellent!!

[Una_Persson]

*Originally posted by MGibson *
Personall I’d love to see more kids involved in the arts and in athletics.

Well, it’s a hard thing not to agree with this in any manner at all. The concept of the “scholar athlete” is a good one.

I support increased athletics in inclusionary competitive and non-competitive manners. Not in the form of organized “official” football, basketball, baseball, polo, underwater axe-fighting, etc. teams. Why?

You can take a poll if you dare in IMHO. But I will bet that the vast majority of Dopers will report that the formation and organization of these teams contributed greatly to the creation of that aformentioned jock “Uber Klass” that tormented, beat, victimized, and outright committed criminal acts on the “Under Klass” of the High School. As you well know I have posted before on the shit that went on at my school, and the tortures inflicted by these sub-humans on others. I won’t bother to debate whether “High School football in itself forces this to happen”. I know it does not “force” anything. But - nonetheless, take that poll in IMHO. See the results. Ask “Were you vicimized or tormented disproportionately by jocks in your High School?”

Because of the acts that occurred at my school, it is difficult, if not impossible, for me to debate in an unbiased manner about this topic.

At least I will admit to that, that I am biased on this subject, Mr. Former…wrestler, was it?

[FairyChatMom]

*Originally posted by Bear_Nenno *
… Since there is always the school auditorium, …

If I may pick a nit or two here, my daughter’s school does not have an auditorium, tho they do boast a “cafetorium”, wherein the tiled walls add indescribable texture to choral and dramatic performances.

While I don’t begrudge the atheletes their field house, stadium, and assorted playing fields, it might have been nice if I didn’t have to take my daughter to the navy base for swim team practice since there are no county school pools. (I’m not gonna mention the $45 swimsuit she was required to purchase or the $30 just to be on the team.) I do object to the “Fair Share” fees that we must pay for her to participate in chorus. This is a class for credit, not an extracurricular activity. I had to pony up $60 in addition to purchasing the required dress ($85) and shelling out the cost of busfare and admission to EPCOT when they performed last Christmas ($35). I’ll not address the endless fundraisers I’ve been expected to support. It could be worse - “Fair Share” for band is close to $200, not including uniform and instrument. Oh yeah - I just bought tickets to their Spaghetti Supper fundraiser next week…

I know there was a point in there somewhere… Something about the lottery that was supposed to add funds to the education budget… Something about “When I was in school…” Something that was lucid before I worked myself into this snit.

I’m lucky - I have just one kid to get thru school, and while the numerous extras are a pain in the checkbook, they don’t cause undue fiscal misery, and I haven’t had to deny my kid the chance to join in her favorite activities. (She knew better than to ask about spring break in France) I can’t help but wonder about the kids who want to sing or play trumpet or whatever, but whose parents can’t afford the assorted monetary requirements.

Is this a case of some kids being a little more equal than others? Is it deliberate, or has it “always been that way”?
Do I have an answer? Hardly.
It wasn’t like this when I was in school…
<sigh>

[pepperlandgirl]

We had to PAY for this. The students in the class that could not afford to go,
did not. Instead of fucking crying because all the popular kids get shit paid for by the school, we raised the
money. After candy sales and other club fundraisers, the total cost per student was under $200. I don’t see a
problem with this. I guess I could add to that: food, books, study materials clothes, personal hygeine products,
or any other trivial items you put in your calculations… but I will just leave it at “under $200”

What exactly was “trivial” in my calculations. That’s what we need every year.

I won’t requote my post so I’ll just say it again.
We fund raise. Everything we do comes from course fees and fundraising, except for 3000. Here, let me repeat myself since you obviously missed it the first time.
We pay for our own trips, we pay for our own entrance fees, and we fundraise as much as possible.
Got it this time?

Now, I’m off to school and I won’t be home till 9ish tonite, so y’all have fun.

Oh, and another thing. I wasn’t “bragging” about my awards. If I wanted to “brag” I would have started a thread in MPSIMS with “I GOT 3 SILVER MEDALS” as a topic. I was pointing out that we are a winning team. But because we are using our brains instead of our brawn, nobody cares. The football, basketball, and waterpolo teams can’t say that much. I think between the 3 of them, they had 4 victories.

Furthermore, I was not addressing you. I was using “you” in a generic sense. Except for the “no fucking clue” because you obviously don’t. If you did, you wouldn’t say something as stupid as “Well, can’t they just debate in field?” Jesus Christ.

[MsRobyn]

Speaking as an ex (Lincoln Douglas)-debater, ex-ROTC’er, and ex-Latin Club member, I’m finding many of these pro-athletic arguments laughable. And, FTR, the football team went to the state championships and won twice in a row during my tenure, so it’s not sour grapes over a bad team.

Granted, sports does teach teamwork, or at least it’s supposed to. I can hardly see how the team benchwarmers can learn much of anything if a handful of star players is allowed to dominate the team.

However, debate also teaches teamwork. Although I debated other students one-on-one (which is the LD style), my teammates shared information. We debated each other in class to discover weaknesses in our cases, learned to judge the work of other students, and learned to think in lists of three (sorry, Opal).

I also learned to think on my feet and marshal information as it was needed, changing tactics as necessary. My communication became much stronger and easier to understand. Debate taught me the ability of abstract reasoning. These are skills that have served me well in my adult life. I feel sad for the ex-athletes, sidelined for life, reminiscing about Their Big Game.

However, the single most important thing debate taught me is self-confidence. I can go out in front of an audience, speak cogently on the given topic, handle a Q&A session after, and leave the stage knowing I did a good job conveying the requested information to my audience. In fact, in ROTC, I had to give a presentation on my position as communications officer. I was given a “superior” rating for it, one of three “superiors” given, and the only one given to an individual.

Yeah, that came at a cost. I spent a lot of my school year selling candy, washing cars, and doing other things to raise the necessary money to be able to compete (although the fact that the school was as noted for debate as it was for football helped quite a bit).

I don’t begrudge the athletic department their equipment (which the phys-ed students also used) or their other needs. I just wish it wasn’t an either-or proposition, as it seems to have been presented here.

Robin

[CrankyAsAnOldMan]

I think there is an attitude problem, not just a money problem. Grok, I love you for posting what you did.

I can recall being told, as a french club member, that we would not be allowed to have a day of school off to go perform our original play at the state conference. At the districts, it had won a top award, and we’d been invited to present at state. Every one of us were college-bound students, taking foreign language as an elective class and sticking with it for four years. But our principal didn’t want us to miss that one day. My mother, who is a schoolteacher and knew how many times the sports teams had to be excused early to make a game, hit the roof. She couldn’t understand how the principal wouldn’t see this event as important, and us worthy of the one-day break to do it. My mom never writes letters of complaint, but she did that time.

I bring that example up as a typical example of the attitude towards those non-athletic activites. I also participated in student government and theatre and speech, and got the same basic attitude. Not important, not interesting, not real activities. I understand you can’t force students to appreciate these things like they do sports, but you can make sure that the time, attention, and respect accorded to it by staff and faculty are equitable. You can also make sure that the paper and the yearbook give these activities a nod.

Lizard recommended a book recently on another thread, and I think some of you would enjoy it. It’s called “Friday Night Lights” and is about the importance of high school football in Texas. An eye-opener.

I also keep an column that Mitch Albom wrote a few years ago. He went to the high school where Robert Traylor played basketball for the press conference–A PRESS CONFERENCE-- his school. There he announced that he’d be committing to Michigan. But Mitch, a great sportswriter, also profiled a very gifted classmate of Traylor’s. While the press clamored to interview Traylor, that kid was typing up yet another financial aid application hoping to be able to go to college. He still hadn’t heard from Michigan yet. He’d overcome incredible family challenges and beat the odds to be a very good student–but for him, his future was entirely uncertain. No press conference for this kid.

[Holly]

Here in Amarillo, Texas, buckle of the Bible Belt and Armpit of the World, high school football is a desperately important thing. I hypothesize that this is due to the fact that there is nothing else to do here. Sports are more important than, for example, world hunger or the fact that a rich kid not long ago murdered a punk kid here by intentionally running him over with his car and got off with just probation. (Community opinion: that punk kid wore leather and had a weird haircut. Obviously, he was asking for it.)

Every year, this town holds an event that I find completely abhorrent. When Amarillo High plays Tascosa High in football, there is an enormous brawl. The entire population of each high school turns out for a giant fight, much like the gang wars in the classic film, The Outsiders.

Their parents largely condone the activity, because they have such fond memories of beating the shit out of each other when they were in high school.

Am I wrong to be repelled by this?

Meanwhile, the Texas panhandle isn’t exactly a hotbed of intellectual activity. High school sports receive pages upon pages upon pages of coverage in the paper, but academics is ignored except for little blurbs listing the names of people who somehow managed to graduate from high school. Despite (or maybe because of) the vehement, fundamentalist Christian atmosphere, we have just about the highest rate of teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease in the entire nation.

The TV news coverage is also heavily saturated with high school sports. If the schools make any accomplishments in anything but sports, nobody knows about it because nobody cares.

[/end rant]

[Gundy]

In my Chicago public high school, I was on the “academic decathlon” team as well as the volleyball team, and a number of other non-athletic activities. In all cases, we had to participate in fund-raising efforts on our own. Support from parents and students for both athletic and non-athletic extracurricular pursuits was low anyway, and fund were extremely limited. I was very close with a number of teachers, and no one ever complained about resources being disproportionately allocated…well, there were some grumblings about drama getting preferential treatment, but anyway. It was expected that if you wanted to run a program, you made do with what money you received and supplemented that with fund raising efforts on your own. Our baseball team was one of the best in the city, and their uniforms were ancient. But they played anyway, and eventually raised enough cash to buy new ones on their own.

While you’ll never hear me say that Chicago public schools are adequately funded, I don’t think that the way we did things was all that bad. I participated in a number of activities because I truly wanted to be there, and even though I hated it (well, selling candy bars at least), I worked my ass off to help out, because my contribution helped make my favorite activities possible. I don’t think expecting students to do their part in order to maintain these programs is asking too much at all, and is in fact ideal.

I don’t think you can fairly compare football to debate when it comes to money for resources. I know it’s been addressed here, but equipment needs alone between the two are vastly different. And let’s face it: football is going to be the more heavily supported program (by internal and external resources) because of popular interest. In a perfect world, folks would support both programs equally, but really. Try selling tickets to both and see which comes out ahead.

The people here simpering that debate programs are inherently better than athletics programs are being intellectually elitist. Apples and oranges. While I don’t think that non-athletic programs should go underfunded in favor of overfunding athletics by any means, I would never support getting rid of athletics programs because for many, many students of average intellect who feel intimidated by such programs as debate, they are valuable and enriching. Again, in a perfect world, students would be equally interested in either program, but they are not. You can blame it on anti-intellectual sentiment in society today, but when it comes down to it, schools have limited resources, and they’re not going to keep a debate team with three participants afloat when a football team with fifty kids needs new padding, and I think that’s perfectly justifiable. You want support for your program? Drum it up yourself.

I can only speak from my own experience, but I never had any particular problems with “jocks”, nor did any of my fellow nerds. We got it from EVERYONE. I was always getting teased, and dammit, I put myself out there for the teasing. So what? I liked doing what I did, I found the friends I needed, and ignored everything else. I can’t get upset that people had different interests; those students that felt the need to pick on me and my friends were simply assholes. I’m the better for it in the long haul because 1) I realized long ago that my priorities were very different from theirs, 2) I’m a happy person because I refuse to let assholes stop me from doing what I want, and 3) from what I understand, those people have amounted to exactly nothing. At times, it was painful to be the pariah, but wailing and thumping my chest did and does no good. Perhaps my experience was unusual, because most of the “popular” set viewed almost any extracurricular activity with some derision anyway.

(brief aside: Chicago dopers, did you hear about the girl who was Miss Puerto Rico last summer but had her title taken away because it turned out she was a stripper? I went to high school with her, and my lord, she was a BITCH. And an extraordinarily stupid person. But, people loved her - she’s easy on the eyes, I’ll give her that - and she treated me and my friends like horse piss with the foam farted off. It’s called karma, baby!)

And finally, every time someone refers to the Columbine shooting simply as the result of poor smart kids who got pushed too far by the jocks it riles me. I don’t know why jocks feel the need to pick on the weak and weird, but I will not justify what Klebold and Harris did by blaming the people that everyone loves to hate. To do so is disgusting and cowardly.

[Bear_Nenno]

pepper,

Got it this time?

Sure, but I heard you the first time. Now you are just starting to sound like a whiny-ass broken record. I never said you didn’t raise money. All I am saying is so did I, so does everyone else. Quit your bitching. I have gone through pretty much the exact same thing you are talking about. I competed in very similar events in a state competition. I obviously know what you are talking about. The difference is I am not whinning about not getting enough money for my personal stay in a hotel room at competition, or extra study materials I may want.
Ever sport or activity that involves individuals and/or idividual personal equipment has to buy said equipment themselves. They have to pay for their uniforms, their travel, their lodging, etc. That’s just how it is, I fail to see the huge problem. Sure it would be nice if the school board could afford to pay for everything. But it can’t. Some sports or activities require a major personal investment.
It’s not just the nerd activities either. This is not a grand scheme against the ‘intellectual competitions’. As I said before, cheerleaders and dancers have to foot their bills. As well as band members purchasing their own instruments, and (thanks FairyChatMom) swim teams buying their own uniforms. I have heard this complaint countless times before: “Why do you guys get free uniforms and equipment?” Considering I never owned the uniform or the stadium, and I never got to take any of it with me when it was all over… I don’t think I was “given” anything.

Except for the “no fucking clue” because you obviously don’t. If you did, you wouldn’t say something as stupid as “Well, can’t they just debate in field?” Jesus Christ.

Wow, I said that? Or was I merely stating the fact that a debate team does not need a facility. There is no specifics on where a debate can take place; no official requirements on the size and dimensions; no official requirements on uniforms or safety equipment. This is a very valid argument. I don’t think anyone else would disagree. If you would take the time to actually read what people say and not spew out all your built up aggression towards all the popular kids at your school, maybe you would understand what it is I said.
Sure, I did the same thing you are doing. As soon as I read Rog’s OP, I blew up thinking about all the people that keep saying they want athletics out of schools and all the people claiming athletes are stupid, and all the people saying mental competitions are far superior to that of physical ones. But, I have since realized this and even apologized.
BTW, FairyChatMom, I cannot believe there is not an auditorium at your daughter’s high school. I could possibly understand an elementary school, or maybe even a middle school, using a cafetorium, but a high school?? That does suck! A real stage just does so much more!!!
I am too used to how things are here. There are several county and city pools for the swim teams to practice and have meets at and all twenty something high schools in the district have auditoriums.

Krispy,
I know what you mean about hockey. Recently students here have started high school hockey. This is Florida so of course it’s not as popular, but I sure wish they had it when I was in high school. The hockey teams are officially “hockey clubs”. The school board does not even recognize them as an official school sport. Someone just started talking with coaches at different schools and and organized this whole thing. I think there are about 8 or 9 high schools participating in the “league”. The students have to pay for everything on their own. Uniforms, equipment, pads, etc. They do get to keep everything they buy and they can always sell it back to a second hand sports store if they don’t want the stuff after graduation.
Sure it sucks forking out more money for stuff like this. I guess I am just too used to it to bitch. In baseball I played catcher and league equipment always sucked ass. I just accepted that if I wanted good stuff, I would buy my own. And that’s what I did.
I designed and built a hovercraft for the Science Club (second place in Districts where I raced other hovercrafts from other schools). It would have been nice for the school board to buy the blowers and materials and everything. I never thought twice about the fact that I had to pay to do it. I never thought “Why do I have to pay for this and not my football stadium?” I guess it all just made sense to me then. It pretty much does now as well.
The French classes go to France every summer. That costs a hell of a lot! Do the students learn a great deal? Of course! Should the school pay for it? I don’t think so! Is this fair- since the poorer kids don’t get to go? Probably not, but what’s the solution? Pay for everything?
Sure I have the opinion I do because I played football for and baseball for over a decade growing up. Every fall= football. Every spring= baseball. That’s just how it was for me. When junior high came, and then high school, it was just natural for me to play for my school. I couldn’t imagine growing up any different. But I did other things as well. Sports was not my entire life, just part of my overall learning and growing and education. I think high schools definitely should have sports. I think they are a great thing. I think that the money spent on them is not a great waste better spent on paying for other students to spend weekend getways in hotels all over the state. I think things are ok how they are. Certainly not something to be very pissed off about.
Everyone keeps bringing up how the losing football team keeps getting funds. I just want to add that even a losing team needs the same safety equipment and the same field and the same kind of practive equipment. And why does it matter whether the team wins or not?

[Maeglin]

I debated a lot in high school. Surpisingly, I was rather good at it. I qualified for the Tournament of Champions twice. I traveled all over the country plying my trade, talking Kant out of one corner of my mouth and trash out of the other. I realize that my experiences do not represent those of the entire Forensics community. But in the interests of fighting ignorance, I will share.

First, I went to afairly affluent public school. Very solid middle class, with some regional variation.

Yes, I traveled at least two weekends a month.

Yes, I almost always stated overnight.

However…

We rarely received busing for long trips. If the team participated in fifteen tournaments per year, we would be bused to perhaps two long distance tourneys. Only the Harvard Invitational Tournament springs to mind, but I am sure that there were occasional others that I am forgetting. We paid for our own busing for local tournaments, naturally. It came out of our budget.

Most of the distance driving was done in my coach’s car. She was an enormous woman. The car was a small Dodge convertible. I’ve ridden fron NY to Virginia with the fat lady and her Dodge. Along with three other debators.

Hotels? A resounding fucking no. We housed. I slept on a stranger’s floor half the weekends of my life in high school. Again, we actually stayed in hotels twice per year: once at Harvard and once at St. Joseph’s University in Philly.

There was no debate library. There were no materials. There were no full-time coaches. Our only coaches were unpaid volunteers with full-time jobs that often required that they miss meetings, tournaments, etc. So we were nearly on our own.

I would also request that those who don’t know anything about forensics and accuse us of not seeking our own funding privately suck on my nuts: first the left, and then the right. Slowly and thoroughly.

My team hosts the Malcolm Bump Invitational Forensics Tournament once per year. It is one of the largest and most prestitigious tournaments in the country. For those who know Forensics, the Bump offers TOC quals in quarterfinals, rendering the tournament less competive in LD and Policy debate than only GBS, Big Bronx, Emory, and a tiny handful of others.

We raise well over $10k from admissions and food sales. We organize the entire tournament ourselves. It is attended by at least 350 debators nationwide. Needless to say, finding debate space and housing for everyone is an administrative nightmare. But in my community, debate bake sales and car washes don’t work. God knows we have tried before. We made less than the cost of the fucking soap.

Now our budget was cut again. The money we make does not defray the costs of transportation and tournament admission. Students and parents now have to pay out of pocket and commit several weekends per year to judging in order to reduce the necessity for hired judges. Our tournament is also in the winter, largely due to the utter inflexibility of the national circuit debate schedule. Though the weather is usually mild, a freak snowstorm can annihilate us. If we have to cancel and reschedule, we can expect only half the customary attendance, which of course jeapordizes our TOC qual status. Which fucks us over for the next year. Which happened to us in 96. Though I graduated at the end of the year, my former teammates tell me that 97 was extremely lean.

The fact is, the team is not valued. So we don’t receive money. Yet when the school brags that “x number of students were accepted into Ivy League universities this year,” guess how many were debators?

I was. My friends were. It is ironic that only at the end of our senior years were we the posterboys for the school. After enduring four years of disdain and underfunding. The athletes were forgotten.

And none received athletic scholarships to decent schools. Although money is poured into my HS sports program, there isn’t enough talent to fill a ten year old girl’s bra.

I am not in principle opposed to sports funding. I think that athletic activity and physical fitness should be essential parts of the lives of every healthy individual. They’re certainly a part of mine.

But forigve me for almost hurling when my good friend and I were forced to be photographed with our principal after the school was informed that we were National Merit Finalists, a little distinction awarded to less than 1/2 of 1% of those who take the PSAT and SAT exams nationwide. How would you feel if you had to smile with the man who tried to deprive you of your favorite activity in order to bolster a 1-9 football team? How would you feel about him taking credit for your achievements?

My friend, not surprising, was also a debator. I don’t think either of us will forget that photo op for a long time.

[egkelly]

A very good book came out a few years back, called “FRIDAY NIGHT LIGHTS”-about the high school football culture in Midland-Odessa , Texas. It pretty much echoed what you had to say-that for a lot of these high school jocks, being on a winning football team is (and will remain) the high point of their lives. What was really pathetic was the former team members, welcomed back by their coaches, giving pep talks to the current team-and revealing that they 9the former golden boys) were now pumping gas or working in some emial job.
Never having been a fotball player, i found the book to be fascinating-but I would not want to be a highscool student there!

[CrankyAsAnOldMan]

*Originally posted by egkelly *
**A very good book came out a few years back, called “FRIDAY NIGHT LIGHTS” **

Jesus, is my mike on? Tap, tap Hello?

Okaym two recommendations (plus Lizard’s) make this a must-go-buy.

Maeglin, I really appreciated your points.

Can I add, for a bit of irony to my first post, that we periodically cut our academic periods short during the football season so the entire school could go to the gym for a pep rally? I suppose one could chalk this up to “tradition” or “school spirit” but no other athletes, no other activity, ever had the school assigned to go sit in the gym and cheer for them. I should have told my principal that I would attend no more pep rallies so that I would “make up” the time French Club was taking me out of class. Jackass!

[Maeglin]

Thanks, Cranky. I hate being the last person to post on a page, as so many people just skip to the end.

I remember pep rallies. Mandatory. Always. They were hideously unpopular. Nerds and jocks alike would try to sneak out before them and would even give each other rides.

Now that’s school spirit.

MR

[Odesio]

*Originally posted by Anthracite *
**

*Originally posted by MGibson *
Personall I’d love to see more kids involved in the arts and in athletics.

Well, it’s a hard thing not to agree with this in any manner at all. The concept of the “scholar athlete” is a good one.

**

I know my statement was very controversial. Like coming out against cancer or something.

**
I support increased athletics in inclusionary competitive and non-competitive manners. Not in the form of organized “official” football, basketball, baseball, polo, underwater axe-fighting, etc. teams. Why?

**

Without competetion of some sort then it isn’t a sport. Heck, even the debate team is focused on competetion.

**
You can take a poll if you dare in IMHO. But I will bet that the vast majority of Dopers will report that the formation and organization of these teams contributed greatly to the creation of that aformentioned jock “Uber Klass” that tormented, beat, victimized, and outright committed criminal acts on the “Under Klass” of the High School.

**

Yeah, this is a great place to take a poll since the SDMB represents such a large cross section of American culture. At my high school the football players didn’t pick on others as a general rule. But then I went to a high school with about 2,000 other students. Come to think of it during my junior and senior years in high school it was rare to see fights or tormenting going on.

**
Because of the acts that occurred at my school, it is difficult, if not impossible, for me to debate in an unbiased manner about this topic.

So why discuss it when you’re still blinded by rage after all these years?

**
At least I will admit to that, that I am biased on this subject, Mr. Former…wrestler, was it? **

Biased? Me? Of course I’m biased. I actually have an opinion on the matter which automatically makes me biased. I don’t see sports as a bad thing and I don’t see competetion as a bad thing.

Marc

[Medea_s_Child]

I know you all don’t nee dmore high school stories from a Model UN/ chior girl/ yearbook editor/ newspaper/ theatre/ anything I could get into person. Tough snuggins.

I loved my high school. Partially because the theatre, yearbook, and chior so out shined every one of the sports teams that they got paid an almost decent amount of attention by the student body. The student body was alos big fans of “if we go, we’re all going”. Someone in the class didn’t have the money? Every oen else works their butts off to pull them along. That’s team work. Not the administration, but I did my own reaction to that.

~Pep Rallys. I never went. I did yearbook work. Out yearbook won State level photography awards and we made that money ourself. I know, I was the business manager. Cost of the books covered about half of what we needed to print the things. We made kids pay for color pictures if they wanted them. We woudl take money for anything and routinely did. We didn’t have to raise a few thousand dollars, we rountinely needed tens of thousands of dollars for film, printing costs, proofs…Compititions? We did those on our own as almost an after thought.

~Uniforms. Basketball got new ones from the school every year. Football every other year. Band every other year. Chior? The chior that is paraded on newpapers and wins International compitions whenever they can scrape up enough moeny to go? Last robe purchase by the school was in the 60’s. Fundraising my sophomore year went to new robes. $20,000 (ish) of robes.

I have been highly involved in the budgets of my high school programs. While the student body support and love for the arts programs helped, it was obvious that the administration had no care for any of its bright and beautiful programs over its sports teams.

And the school still gets the credit when all it has done was provide a room for the programs that shine.

Personally, I stopped allowing photo ops about my junior year. I was educating myself in spite of the administration and fully indended that to be painfully clear. Call me a bitch but some of my fonder memories are from blowing off the administration of my high school. It can be done. It helps if your parents back you up.

[Una_Persson]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MGibson *
**

*Originally posted by Anthracite *

**
I support increased athletics in inclusionary competitive and non-competitive manners. Not in the form of organized “official” football, basketball, baseball, polo, underwater axe-fighting, etc. teams. Why?

**

Without competetion of some sort then it isn’t a sport. Heck, even the debate team is focused on competetion.**

Websters New World Dictionary, Third College Edition, Prentice Hall Publishers, page 1297, definition: (emphasis added)

sport - 1. Any activity or experience that gives enjoyment or recreation; pastime; diversion. 2. such an activity, esp. when competitive, requiring more or less vigorous bodily exertion and carried on, sometimes as a profession, according to some traditional form or set of rules, whether outdoors, as football, golf, etc., or indoors, as basketball, bowling, etc.

So we are both being correct here. I know you don’t like to admit you are wrong, but surely you can admit one time I am correct.

**

You can take a poll if you dare in IMHO. But I will bet that the vast majority of Dopers will report that the formation and organization of these teams contributed greatly to the creation of that aformentioned jock “Uber Klass” that tormented, beat, victimized, and outright committed criminal acts on the “Under Klass” of the High School.

Yeah, this is a great place to take a poll since the SDMB represents such a large cross section of American culture.**

Yes, it represents a large cross section of the best and brightest of American - and international - culture. Sounds like out of 12,000+ people we might get a decent sample size, surely?

**

Because of the acts that occurred at my school, it is difficult, if not impossible, for me to debate in an unbiased manner about this topic.

So why discuss it when you’re still blinded by rage after all these years?**

I admitted I was biased based on past events. You now claim I am “blinded by rage”. That’s some leap there. Care to back it up, or to withdraw it?

**
At least I will admit to that, that I am biased on this subject, Mr. Former…wrestler, was it?

Biased? Me? Of course I’m biased. I actually have an opinion on the matter which automatically makes me biased. I don’t see sports as a bad thing and I don’t see competetion as a bad thing.**

I guess I could claim you are blinded by athleto-erotic hero worship, but that would be just as valid as your “blinded by rage” poke.

[sub]Wow…athelto-erotic…talk about neologisms…[/sub]

[Odesio]

**

sport - 1. Any activity or experience that gives enjoyment or recreation; pastime; diversion. 2. such an activity, esp. when competitive, requiring more or less vigorous bodily exertion and carried on, sometimes as a profession, according to some traditional form or set of rules, whether outdoors, as football, golf, etc., or indoors, as basketball, bowling, etc.

So we are both being correct here. I know you don’t like to admit you are wrong, but surely you can admit one time I am correct.

**

Under the definition you wish to be credited for debate, orchestra, and drama are all considered sports. Do you really want to include all of those with football and wrestling during the course of this topic?

**
Yes, it represents a large cross section of the best and brightest of American - and international - culture. Sounds like out of 12,000+ people we might get a decent sample size, surely?

**

I think you flatter the folks who post here, me included. While I do think there are some intelligent folks around here I won’t go so far to say that the best and brightest are represented here.

**
I admitted I was biased based on past events. You now claim I am “blinded by rage”. That’s some leap there. Care to back it up, or to withdraw it?

**

Based on things said in other threads and in this you seem to hate “jocks.” Yeah, I think that qualifies as being blinded by rage and I will not withdraw it. Nor am I going to go digging through old threads to quote you.

**
I guess I could claim you are blinded by athleto-erotic hero worship, but that would be just as valid as your “blinded by rage” poke.

[sub]Wow…athelto-erotic…talk about neologisms…[/sub] **

Mmmmm…Homer Erotic…sorry. Just because I got down on all fours and let some sweaty muscular teenage boy mount me from behind doesn’t mean it was…uh oh, nevermind.

I didn’t much support the sports teams when I was in high school. In fact I didn’t care about any of the extracurricular activities I wasn’t personally involved in. That means that my little high school world was pretty much limited to orchestra and wrestling.

And unlike a lot of people here my extracurricular activities in the arts was better funded then they were in sports. Nobody in the school cared about wrestling and it didn’t really bother me. Football was king where I lived and basketball queen. Such is life.

Marc

[Una_Persson]

*Originally posted by MGibson *
**

**

sport - 1. Any activity or experience that gives enjoyment or recreation; pastime; diversion. 2. such an activity, esp. when competitive, requiring more or less vigorous bodily exertion and carried on, sometimes as a profession, according to some traditional form or set of rules, whether outdoors, as football, golf, etc., or indoors, as basketball, bowling, etc.

So we are both being correct here. I know you don’t like to admit you are wrong, but surely you can admit one time I am correct.

**

Under the definition you wish to be credited for debate, orchestra, and drama are all considered sports. Do you really want to include all of those with football and wrestling during the course of this topic?**

So non-competitive running is not a sport? Gymnastics is not a sport unless one is in trials or competition? Engaging in an activity by oneself (such as weightlifting, shot-put, discus, javelin, pole vault) are not “sports” unless and until there is competition involved?

And I note, even though it may be off-topic w.r.t. football et al, you again refuse to back down and admit that I was correct - as has happened on other occasions.

**
I admitted I was biased based on past events. You now claim I am “blinded by rage”. That’s some leap there. Care to back it up, or to withdraw it?

Based on things said in other threads and in this you seem to hate “jocks.” Yeah, I think that qualifies as being blinded by rage and I will not withdraw it. Nor am I going to go digging through old threads to quote you.**

I “seem to hate jocks” - thus, this qualifies me as being “blinded by rage”. Well, I do hate the Klan, Nazis, and child molesterssup(2)[/sup]. By your faulty definition, I must thus also be “blinded by rage” for this reason? How many other people on this Board are thus, by your definition, “blinded by rage”? Could you too perhaps be blinded by rage towards a group?

Can you defend your arrival at me being “blinded by rage”? Or perhaps is it really just bothering you to get caught saying something you shouldn’t have?

[sub]1) No, I’m not comparing jocks to the Klan, Nazis, or child molesters.
2) No, I have not invoked Godwin’s Law, since I have made no actual comparison to Nazis or Hitler of any group. Thus, the thread is not dead.[/sub]

[Odesio]

**
So non-competitive running is not a sport? Gymnastics is not a sport unless one is in trials or competition? Engaging in an activity by oneself (such as weightlifting, shot-put, discus, javelin, pole vault) are not “sports” unless and until there is competition involved?

**

Correct. <whew> I’m glad we’ve got that out of the way I feel it was putting a cramp on our relationship.

**
And I note, even though it may be off-topic w.r.t. football et al, you again refuse to back down and admit that I was correct - as has happened on other occasions.

**

What’s to back down from? Under your definition you wish to be credited for debate, orchestra, and choir are all “sports.” If those are sports I suppose they’re all jocks as well, no?

**
I “seem to hate jocks” - thus, this qualifies me as being “blinded by rage”. Well, I do hate the Klan, Nazis, and child molesterssup(2)[/sup]. By your faulty definition, I must thus also be “blinded by rage” for this reason?

**

Fine. Based on your horrid past association with various “jocks” from your high school you’ve developed an irrational hatred of athletics and athletes.

**
How many other people on this Board are thus, by your definition, “blinded by rage”? Could you too perhaps be blinded by rage towards a group?

**

I suppose I could be blinded by rage if I was angry enough.

**
Can you defend your arrival at me being “blinded by rage”? Or perhaps is it really just bothering you to get caught saying something you shouldn’t have?

**

I’m basing it off of things you’ve said in other threads and this one. I’m not going to take the time to search all the past threads to put together a comprehensive list.

**
[sub]1) No, I’m not comparing jocks to the Klan, Nazis, or child molesters.
2) No, I have not invoked Godwin’s Law, since I have made no actual comparison to Nazis or Hitler of any group. Thus, the thread is not dead.[/sub] **

Don’t worry I know exactly what you meant and I’m not going to jump on your back about it. Even if my football team in high school was the Brown Shirts.

Marc

[Una_Persson]

*Originally posted by MGibson *
**

So non-competitive running is not a sport? Gymnastics is not a sport unless one is in trials or competition? Engaging in an activity by oneself (such as weightlifting, shot-put, discus, javelin, pole vault) are not “sports” unless and until there is competition involved?

Correct. <whew> I’m glad we’ve got that out of the way I feel it was putting a cramp on our relationship.**

Define “rhetorical”. It’s a few pages before “sarcastic”.

**
And I note, even though it may be off-topic w.r.t. football et al, you again refuse to back down and admit that I was correct - as has happened on other occasions.

What’s to back down from? Under your definition you wish to be credited for debate, orchestra, and choir are all “sports.” If those are sports I suppose they’re all jocks as well, no?**

Depends on which definition of “jock” you wish to apply. I assure you my definition is far different from yours. Yours would likely be:

1.An athletic supporter.
2.Sports. An athlete, especially in college.

whereas mine would likely be:

3.Slang. One characterized by excessive concern for machismo.

**
I “seem to hate jocks” - thus, this qualifies me as being “blinded by rage”. Well, I do hate the Klan, Nazis, and child molesterssup(2)[/sup]. By your faulty definition, I must thus also be “blinded by rage” for this reason?

Fine. Based on your horrid past association with various “jocks” from your high school you’ve developed an irrational hatred of athletics and athletes.**

Fascinating…we’ve gone from me being “blinded by rage” to just having an “irrational hatred” - all without an apology or acknowledgement of wrongdoing. Sigh. Let’s pull out old Mr. Dictionary again…

[1.
a.Not endowed with reason.
b.Affected by loss of usual or normal mental clarity; incoherent, as from shock.
c.Marked by a lack of accord with reason or sound judgment: an irrational dislike. See Synonyms at unreasonable.

a.Being a syllable in Greek and Latin prosody whose length does not fit the metric pattern.
b.Being a metric foot containing such a syllable.

3.Mathematics. Of or relating to an irrational number.](http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=irrational)

OK…so in general, let’s talk right down to Earth, in a language that everyone here can easily understand.

1a. I was tortured, beaten, kicked, hit, taunted, teased, had my property stolen, broken, etc. by jocks in my High School. Many things which would have been crimes punishable by jail time - if one could report them without risk of retaliation and possible death. My dislike, if I had such a thing, thus has reason behind it.

1b. I don’t know - are my arguments here showing more, or less clarity than normal? Or are they simply “not clear” because they are an opposing viewpoint to yours?

1c. I put forth the same evidence as 1a for this. Is my dislike, should I have one, unreasonable? No, it is not.

2a, 2b, and 3 are not applicable.

**
Can you defend your arrival at me being “blinded by rage”? Or perhaps is it really just bothering you to get caught saying something you shouldn’t have?

I’m basing it off of things you’ve said in other threads and this one. I’m not going to take the time to search all the past threads to put together a comprehensive list.**

Are you really trying to say that I have shown a hatred of jocks (my definition above) in past threads, or are you just trying to paint me with a broad brush of “irrationality” now?

I don’t think I understand how it is logical for you to continue to do this. I think you need to be careful - you really are coming across as a pretty arrogant person, who is not very nice IRL. Your words might be justified if I had said something inflammatory like “jocks must die! Jocks suck!” But rather, I have been most polite in general on this topic, and trying hard not to denigrate your opinions, or call you names or imply you are mentally unstable. Tell me - why are you doing these things?