Approaching the 25th of April when we commemorate the efforts made and lives lost at Gallipoli in 1915.

Last year at around this time, you, my Australian friend, asked:

“Do they have ANZAC day in New Zealand?”

No, you dumb fuck!! The NZ part of ANZAC is for the end of Australianz!!! You useless little piece of historically ignorant SHIT.

It’s no wonder though, the news articles all made mention of ANZAC day - a day for remembering all the Australians who paid the ultimate price so long ago. Stupid, ignorant, goat felching, insular, fuckhead aussie journos!!

This week, on the 25th of April, please remember, my aussie (aussie aussie, oi oi oi) friend(s), that ANZAC stands for Australia New Zealand Army Corps, not Australianz Army Corps, and yes, we do remember our dead along with yours over in NZ.

This is sadly all too true.

They’ve probably got confused between ANZUS and ANZAC.

ANZAC Day has come back from being almost forgotten to a growing nationalistic myth.

The casualty list (British 120,000, French 27,000, Australian 27,000, New Zealand 7,500) indicates that this was far from being an exclusively ANZAC operation.

My understanding is that the deepest advance (to Chunuk Bair) was made by Kiwis.

But any more details would require a cite and that’s not good form in the Pit …

I’d like for it to be made our national day. For me, the 26th of January just represents the start of a disastrous and brutal occupation for the sole purpose of setting up a human refuse heap. And to beat the French to it of course.

Anzac day, on the other hand, commemorates noble qualities exhibited by our people and is represents something of the ideals that Australian like to attribute to themselves; toughness, cameraderie and courage.

Ruxton hates the idea though.

What, so you’d like to make ANZAC day Australia’s national day would you? Perhaps you missed the point of my post :confused:.

I do agree though, that the day probably has better connotations than the history of the 26th of Jan.

Hee. Reminds me in a sort of flippy way of the folks who think World War Two started in 1941.

Not at all. Sorry if I seemed dismissive of your concerns about the absence of NZ from some Australians’ concept of Anzac day. Rather, I simply wasn’t addressing them. It’s just that to acknowledge NZ had a (proportionately even greater) role in the conflict doesn’t lessen the significance of the day for Australians.

So just untwist the knickers, OK? I readily accept that many other Australians may be completely ignorant of Kiwi involvement. OTOH, I for one, have always regarded them as an inseparable part of my awareness of the issue.

Or 1939 even.

Yeah, no wurries, I got where you were coming from. By the same tokan NZ would be well served to change their national day from one that highlights the devisions within the country to one that highlights unity and strength.

First: thanks very much, Skogcat, for the reminder of what ANZAC stands for. Cheers for that. But … I can’t agree with what you’ve said about Waitangi Day (our national day).

I don’t feel that Waitangi Day “highlights divisions”. What does that is the recognition of how far my country’s history shifted from the ideals as laid down by the Treaty of Waitangi, which the day commemorates. The Treaty is a damn good start when it comes to recognising the rights of two neighbours living side-by-side here in NZ – eventually, once the various treaty claims are sorted out, once the wrongs are addressed and redressed, we’ll see February 6, 1840 as the unique start toward nationhood that it was. And that we need to remember to keep talking to each other, and working toward better understanding.

Saying that – I feel we actually have two national days in our hearts here in NZ. And to many, Anzac Day takes perference over the more recent Waitangi Day (commemorated only since the 1970s).

A good friend of mine, an ex-serviceman, reminded me the other day of the Ode read out at Anzac Day services.

From For the Fallen by Laurence Binyon (1869-1943).

That’s what Anzac Day is all about. We all remember.

And after all that, and previewing, I still see typos. sigh Apologies, folks. “Preference”, not “perference”.

I would not be in favour of ANZAC day becoming a general National Day.

Gallipoli to me is the story of sending a whole load of our youngest and best off in a forlock tugging fashion, to invade a country* that we had nothing against, on behalf of colonial overlords, to die inglorious deaths in the mud over nothing.

The whole thing deserves a memorial. A memorial to cheerful courage in the context of stupidity and naivety.

And yes, yes, before you all castigate me, I know that one can perhaps separate out the individual heroics and mateship and all that from the complete bollocks that was the campaign as a whole, but we already celebrate ANZAC day for those reasons and that is enough. No need for the day to become a symbol for the whole nation.

I saw part of an item from a current affairs show the other night. It was talking about Gallipoli (the place) and saying how for Australians it was a place of deep feelings of pride and nationalism. The usual jingoistic crap. I went to Gallipoli a few years ago. I didn’t feel any pride and nationalism. Just sadness and horror. I would have felt proud only if we had refused to become involved in such a disaster. If we had told the British where they could shove the whole idea.

*and ain’t it amazing how seldom we view it from the Turkish persective. Just what did they do to us? What right did we have to get involved in the invasion of a country that was no threat to us at all?

But then, coming from a country that idolises a violent armed robber, what do I expect really?

I’m with you, Princhester.

And Skogcat can you really say that every Kiwi acknowledges the contributions of the Aussies to Anzac Day? Anzac Day in NZ seemed pretty NZ focused to me.

The Anzac Bridge, bringing traffic from the western suburbs into Sydney, has (permanent) Aussie and NZ flags flying from the pylons.
I guess there is some growing recognition of a team effort in Gallipoli.

Yes, of course it is, and I can understand that it is Aus focused here. What really grated was the ignorant question that my friend asked about it, the rest was really just fleshing out the rant :D. He’s not an ignorant person in general but he seemed to think that ANZAC day was purely an australian celebration.

Princhester you make good points about the difference between what Gallipoli was and how it is represented today. At any rate it would be inapropriate as a national day for either NZ or Aus because it is a day to be remembered by two countries not just one. I was thinking that any day would instill more unity and pride in your average NZer than Waitangi Day, or at least the Waitangi days of a couple of years ago that I can remember.

I am hoping that Ice Wolf is right and that sometime soon Waitangi Day will be a time for commemorating the steps forwards we have made as a nation, and not be a day of protest. Of course, first we must make more of those forward steps.

Fuckit, this is hopeless, I’m agreeing with everyone!

Sorry Skogcat, I’ll try to say something that offends you outrageously next time, so that we can have a decent flame war. You’re right, all this agreeableness is unbecoming of the proud traditions of this great Pit.:wink:

Your acquaintance is obviously a fucknugget.

Please bring him here so we can flame his arse off.

Just adding to all this agreeing stuff – yes, Skogcat. May there soon be little need for protest, from those who are justified, or those who are simply prima donnas for the media.

Not sure about the “Kiwi focus” bit Primaflora spoke of – much of the media stuff around the day speaks of Aussies’ + Kiwis’ efforts, over here. 'Least, that’s the way it seems to me.

Maybe I should go now before this turns into a group hug and we get booted outta th’ Pit, huh, folks?

Couldn’t agree more with the OP. ANZAC day commemorates an event in which Australian and New Zealand troops fought and died.

As for making ANZAC day the new Australia day - no way. ANZAC day is a day to look back with sorrow and gratitude. It is not a day where we celebrate being nation, it’s a day we remember those who did not return, and those who came back changed men sometimes for the worse. It is a day when we remember wholesale slaughter of young men, on a far away beach for a war that was not their own. Maybe it helped Australia to come of age as a nation (I can’t speak for NZ), but let us remember and respect rather than let the day become overtaken by other (also important) celebration.

I don’t want Anzac Day to become the Australian national day, but for a different reason. I have always felt a strong spirit of kinship with New Zealand in regard to Anzac Day -that’s part of its strength. I don’t think it would be insulting to either nation if the other adopted Anzac Day as its national day. It’s almost a compliment. No, I would prefer to keep Jan 26 as our national day, precisely because it’s boring and vaguely unconfortable -that’s what national days are all about! :smiley: Let it be the official day -for the officials. Just like I prefer Waltzing Matilda to Advance Australia Fair, but I’d never change the anthem. Let the politicians, and dull official occasions have Australia Day and Advance Australia Fair. The rest of us can keep the good stuff.

TLD you are such an Australian. I’m as anti-officialdom as anyone, but we differ on what (seem to be) our respective reasons…

I don’t like Australian officialdom and anthems and flags because I feel like they should represent us more. It should be us more. We should identify with them more.

But there is that peculiarly Aussie attitude that the Australian government and all official Australian things, and officialdom is, was and always will be someone completely “other” with whom we do not and have no reason to identify with.

It’s not “our” national anthem, it’s “their” national anthem, and that is how it should be. Apparently.

I can identify with the attitude to some degree (I am Australian, after all), but I sometimes think it’s a bit sad. I sometime think we’d be better off with an attitude that our anthems and politicians and national days should actually reflect us. If we had more of that attitude, and less of the “us and them” attitude, we might actually elect anthems and (more importantly) politicians that we liked, instead of anthems and politicians who we believe to sound suitably official and pompous.

I think it’s all part of the Great Cringe. We are governed by a representative of the British. We are all mere peasants. The government is an outsider in it’s own land, and officials of that government are representatives of someone else, not us.

[Incoherent stream of consciousness rant over.]