I think you guys should make that “Still Call Australia Home” song your anthem. It is a beautiful song (particularly the version on the QANTAS ad) and says all the right things to my mind. The only real thing wrong with it is that it has been used to endorse a commercial product.
hmmm, no. He’s ok generally. It would be too shocking for him to experience the SDMB BBQ :D.
(underline added) Woah, easy tiger! Let’s not get carried away.
I disagree that the prevailing Australian attitude is that our current official symbols and institutions are alien to us. I believe we are not strangers in our own land. I believe the idea of an Aussie cultural cringe is a myth. A ‘interesting’ current affairs topic to be bandied about by the media and discussed ever so earnestly by arts academics and in glossy magazines. It’s not real. I’m young, I’m not ashamed of our Australian symbols. I don’t feel inferior when we are compared the dignity of Europe’s ancient symbols. I don’t feel shabby when our quiet patriotism is held up to the chest-thumping glitz and glam of American jigoism. I like the national anthem. I like celebrating our national day. I don’t feel alienated from government. Cynical at times, yes, but disconnected, no.
Down at the river foreshore this Australia Day, I was surrounded by people singing ‘Advance Australia Fair’. My friends and I sang too. We weren’t ashamed. We didn’t feel silly. Our hands weren’t on our hearts - that’s not the Australian way - but still we felt ownership and pride in our national anthem. Our pride is a quiet one, but it’s still there.
We don’t salute the flag when it rises. Not because we’re ashamed or because we don’t like the emblem in the top-left corner (and we don’t), but because to our Aussie minds saluting feels ridiculous. It’s unnecesary. We’re not demonstrative people. We leave pomp and pretention to the military-types. But we’re still proud, just quietly so.
Several of my friends work in the public sector, working for government. An economist with Treasury, an analyst with the ATO, an officer in the ADF, a judge’s associate, a clerk at the Attorney-General’s office. They are all part of government. They are working parts of the official institutions of Australia. I don’t feel disconnected from them; I don’t feel disconnected from what they do.
I’ve know my local MP. He sent his sons to my high school and to my tennis club. Now one of these sons is in my faculty at university. Now his father is the Premier of WA. He’s not suddenly a stranger, or a pompous official. Equally, his fellow politicians aren’t faceless officials. They’re just normal people, both products of our community and a part of our community.
Sure, I don’t like the flag. I dislike having a foreign Head of State. But there aren’t the important things. They don’t detract from my underlying pride. They certainly aren’t enough to make me feel ashamed.
(Rebuting incoherent steam of consciousness over :))
Two questions skogcat.
1/ Why do you say “I think you guys should…” Aren’t you one of us? Is the Darwin address just temporary?
2/ The point of that fucking song is that the singer no longer lives in Australia. I mean a national anthem sung on the basis that while you would like to call that nation home, you’d actually prefer to live elsewhere could conceivably be viewed as sending something that might, just possibly, be the wrong fucking message. No?
3/ Yes. Opal. Whatever.
(aah, good, now we’re getting properly pitty)
The unnamed acquaintance of Skogcat is getting a raw deal here. He was only asking if New Zealand celebrated ANZAC Day and I’m sure that most Aussies wouldn’t be certain that it’s also a holiday in NZ. Unless he didn’t know what the NZ stood for.
Anyway it’s great to see the increased regard for ANZAC day over the last 10 years. For those overseas there are lots of places having services , some followed by breakfast.
Actually, Princhester, Peter Allen no longer lives, period.
I’d rather have “Click Go the Shears” or “Waltzing Matilda” as our national anthem (or at least national song - a la America the Beautiful) if I can’t have Eric Bogle’s “Shelter”.
Very interesting interview with Eric Bogle in the weekend newspapers BTW regarding “And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda”.
I wouldn’t really have any problem with ANZAC Day becoming our new national day - we already observe 11 November in addition to ANZAC Day. I just wish we’d piss off Australia Day as a public holiday.
1/ Don’t misquote me. I said that the government is an outsider in it’s own land, not that we are.
2/ You make some good points.
3/ [Fuck off. No. Look, just fuck off. Oh, look, alright. Opal. Happy now?]
4/ You are not a typical Australian. I never said that all Australians had the attitudes to which I referred. Oh. You think you are typical. Let me tell you how wrong you are. You went to High School and University. That puts you in a tiny minority for a start. You are a friend of the son of a premier. You post coherently to a vaguely intellectual message board dedicated to fighting ignorance. And then (excuse me while I snort derisively) you use yourself as an example of a normal Australian and seek to derive from that some sort of conclusion about typical Australian attitudes. I may be wrong. You may be right. But your line of argument is crap, unless the little that I can glean of your background from your post is very atypical of your background as a whole.
5/ I didn’t dream TLD’s post, did I? TLD is not a weirdo. He is not the only Australian with the attitudes he evidenced. Hell, like I said, I feel as he does, in some ways.
6/ Until you come up with a damn sight better argument I will continue to believe there is a cringe. It is not all pervasive. It does not affect all people or all things. But it is there. I reckon.
But that isn’t the point, is it? I will proudly state that I am not an expert on the lyrics of that song, but my impression was that the song was sung from the point of view of an expat i.e. no matter who sings it, they are still suggesting that while they no longer are here, they still call this place home. No?
Maybe you realised that but were just updating me on the Peter Allan situation.
Your impression is wrong. The song is sung from the point of view of a traveller, not an expatriate Australian. The point is singer will always return to Australia, no matter where he roams.
Damn you Princhester for making me quote Peter Allen!
:eek:
I don’t I’ve been so insulted before. Couldn’t you have stuck to calling me a fuckwit dickwad assclown? Instead, I’m not a normal Aussie! Ouch, that’s low! And here’s me - sitting resplendent in my blue shearer’s singlet, tracky daks and an evening stubbie - thinking I’m the real thing.
Silly me! I guess I shouldn’t have claimed I’m perfectly average, perfectly Australian. I shouldn’t have made the claim that my views represent the opinions of all normal Australians.
Oh, wait. I didn’t.
However, I did attempt to draw a conclusion about Australian attitudes based on the opinions of my Australian self and those of my Australian friends. For that, I apologise.
I’d much rather keep ‘Advance Australia Fair’ - or even switch to ‘I Still Call Australia Home’.
I’m going to an dawn Anzac Day ceremony on Thursday morning. There’ll be thousands up at Kings Park Perth, but it will be a quiet and subdued morning. I’d hate for such a solemn occasion to be marred by racuous ‘Waltzing Matilda’ or even worse, the folkish ‘Click Go The Shears’. We need something dignified and respectful; ‘Advance Australia Fair’ isn’t great, but it serves.
But that’s just my atypical, minority opinion. 
**
**I think it would be nice if we could celebrate Australia Day on the anniversary of Federation. That is, if there wasn’t a clash on that day. Lousy Founding Fathers… choosing New Years Day (grumble, grumble).
Just in order to add a pinch of spice to a pit soup!!!
A Turkish guy checks in!
If anybody gets historically ignorant enough to call a day when their troops tried to attack a country on the other end of the world that had no historical ties with them, he needs to be flamed.
I am just not the type of person suitable for the pit, but had to give my two cents.
There used to be times several centuries ago when my ancestors had armies running around in parts of the world where they had no business.
They were after conquests that would make the country richer. This trend still goes on in the world today, more in an economical vein than military, but the main character of the approach is the same. And it should just not be written in the pages of history as an “honourable effort”
It’s just greed.
Period.
And naming a day that caused thousands of people to die because of greed would just not be right. (…sorry for the understatement…)
Watermelon Man historical ties or not, the world was at war. Australia was an ally of England, and Turkey was an enemy. My WWI history is not good enough to know all the details of who was an enemy of who, but I do know this. WWI never came close to Australian shores, yet because our allies were in trouble, we sent 300000 of our own young men, which was about 6% of our entire population, and not one of them was a conscript. There was no greed about it. We had nothing to gain, except to do what was honourable to “the mother country”. ANZAC day was the first time any troops had fought under an Australian flag. Ever. This is why we remember. This is why we honour those we remember.
And Turkey ultimately embraced our dead. In 1938 Ataturk said (it is now inscribed on a memorial at ANZAC cove).
“Those heroes that shed their blood
and lost their lives;
You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country.
Therefore rest in peace.
There is no difference between the Johnnies
and the Mehemets to us where they lie side by side
here in this country of ours.
You, the mothers,
who sent their sons from far away countries,
wipe away your tears;
your sons are now lying in our bosom
and are at peace.
After having lost their lives on this land they have
become our sons as well”
Aww geez. Bonza. 
Princhester, I’ll try to respond to your original reply to my post, despite the fact that it seems to have become lost in the melee.
I actually found myself agreeing with much of what you wrote (and subsequently questioning my own ideas -viva la Dope!), but I will differ from you on the question of the Cultural Cringe.
IMHO, the Cringe is as good as dead. On a personal level, I killed it years ago, and on a national level, it’s definitely on the verge of keeling over.
My preference for “official” music and holidays to be distinct from the “real” Australian ones isn’t, I think, Cringe-based. To give an example, the United States (possibly the most cringe-free nation on earth) has similar issues with the possibility of America the Beautiful replacing The Star-Spangled Banner as their national anthem. There was an SDMB thread on this very topic months ago, and I posted to it that I prefer America the Beautiful (a truly stirring piece of music), but I’d hate to see them adopt it as their anthem, for the same reasons as I’d hate to see Waltzing Matilda become ours. As I recall, there was a (slight) majority of US Dopers who agrees with me.
Australia has come of age. The Cringe was evident back in the days when we believed we should have been taken more seriously by the rest of the world, and acted like a petulant three year-old when we weren’t. I’m sure the citizens of Iceland (and even more insignificant player on the world stage) are proud of their traditions, and don’t give a rat’s arse about the way their country is received in New york or London. That is how it should be, and how a mature Australia should feel too.
To be concerned about the anthem and national day being more representative of the people is, in a way, to be anxious to project a certain image to the rest of the world -on the rest of the world’s terms! To me, that is the Cringe in action. If disrespect of officialdom is part of the Australian psyche (and a part which puts us at odds with most other nations), then let’s project that to the rest of the world. If Australia were to somehow miraculously become a hand-on-the-heart superpower, and have no reason to feel the Cringe at all, I’d say the same thing: Anzac Day belongs to the people. It’s meaning is strengthened that way.
No worries eh, Princhester? Wanna beer?
And as for Watermelon Man’s comments, well, what robinc308 said. I was to slow off the mark to post the beautiful Ataturk quote.
Here’s an NZ article from a local news site called Stuff. It’s NZ-focussed (tip o’ the hat to Primaflora) but also far more international-toned that at first glance.
Largely, I stand corrected. But I still say that the song (if it does not quite say so) is from the point of view of someone who doesn’t spend much time here, considers the rest of the world to be more interesting, but likes to sentimentally think of Oz as the sunny home in the sun to come back to. Someday. Maybe. And in Peter Allen’s case never.
If it’s any consolation, I had to look at the lyrics too. Let’s stop this madness, please!
Are you sure? You didn’t do so explicitly, but what you did do was suggest that my comments about the attitudes of some Australians were wrong, on the basis that you and your friends didn’t have those attitudes. Implication: you and your friends are a representive sample of all Australians.
Sorry Narrad, this whole thing is a bit of a sore point with me. I get really pissed off when I hear my wealthy, tertiary educated, champagne socialist environmentalist friends who all vote for the Greens and the Democrats, (along with about 3 or 4% of the rest of the population:)) and all of whose friend and friends of friends do likewise, saying “Every Australian I know thinks x” but meaning “Australians think x”. It drives me nuts.
Anyhow, there’s not much point in us arguing, Narrad, because apart from this point, I very largely agree with you on all other points. I agree with both you and TLD that the cringe is on the way out. We probably differ on the extent to which it is gone.
TLD when you are next in Brisbane there will be several beers. There will be a Brisdopefest, even if that just means you and me.
However, one thing. I am not really too interested in the way we project ourselves to the world. I don’t really care that much (because I don’t think I have too much cringe, internally). What bothers me more is when, within Australia, we are held back by an attitude that sees us not caring about what government we vote for because deep down we don’t really feel that they are our government, or that they will ever actually care about us.
And I’m with Watermelon Man. Take note, he said nothing about the individuals involved. He just commented on making a day in which we assisted with invading another country, our National Day.
And Ataturk was a great man. His quoted words showed forgiveness. But when someone forgives you, it is (to say the least) rather bad form to take that as an indication that you did nothing wrong in the first place.
Damn you Princhester!
Damn you!
Planning Brisdopes without me! Bloody typical.
Now TLD when are you going to be in Brisbane next?
Now hang on a doggone minute, Primaflora, calm yourself now. All I meant was that there would be a Brisdopefest for two, if that was necessary. I wasn’t suggesting that was preferable. I am aware that you (and others I think) exist here.
OK
Actually I don’t think there are all that many Brisbane Dopers now. Broken doll, you and me seem to be all the current Brisbane dopers.
I was mostly joking because my attempts at a brisbane dope have not worked out in the slightest.
Ice Wolf I just spent longer than I should have wandering around stuff.com and I’m simultaneously homesick and glad to be away from the NZ winter.
Two answers Princhester.
1/ Because I am a Kiwi. I live in Darwin but, despite occasionally being caught by my SO watching AFL, I still call New Zealand home
2/ Actually just the one answer. No. 2 has been adequately covered by others here.
3/ Who the heck is Opal?
105 posts and you have not yet seen the answer to the the standard faq re Opal?
Search on Opal and lists. There are more threads on the subjects than you can poke a stick at.