Yeah, it would be nice if the airlines said “We apologize, even if this causes you no inconvenience at all”.
I’ve been delayed and such, and not had it cause any inconvenience, but I’d still like an apology. Why should the inconvenienced be the only ones getting an apology.
[QUOTE=blinkingblinking]
I do not dilute the word ‘sorry’. It annoys me when I hear my co-workers saying ‘sorry’ about things which they did not cause. Customer phones and complains about rude person from my company. My co-worker instantly says “Sorry”. I do not apologize for things others did or did not do.
[/QUOTE]
Really? You’re not sorry that that customer had a shitty experience with someone from your company? Whether or not you caused the problem, I think it is appropriate to say, “I am sorry that happened to you. I am sorry you had to deal with that. I am sorry you had a problem.” Sorry doesn’t mean that you are directly responsible for anything or everything, it means you are expressing sympathy for the other person. I say “sorry” for plenty of things. I’m sorry you are sick. I’m sorry that traffic was bad for you. I’m sorry you fought with your husband, etc.
Furthermore, since the employee is acting on behalf of the company, it’s appropriate for the employee to apologize for the company’s problem.
(It’s gracious when customers recognize that the problem is not the employee’s fault. Indeed, when I need to complain strongly about the way a company is treating me, I usually say, “I realize this isn’t your fault, but…”)
[QUOTE=Kimstu]
Apologizing for a rude insult is not the same thing as “weaseling out” of the belief that the insult expressed. Saying “I’m sorry I said that, because it was rude and insulting and I should have known better” is not the same thing as saying “I’m sorry, I didn’t really mean what I said”.
Anybody who thinks that honesty requires one to refuse to apologize for insulting remarks, just because those remarks expressed their sincerely held opinions, is headed for a good deal of trouble, socially speaking. Anybody who thinks that they don’t need to apologize for calling another person’s close relative a stupid asshole :eek: is probably headed for an actual physical thrashing someday.
I’m not surprised that you tend to find, as you say, “so many people in this world now that will take offence at anything”. But I think it may have more to do with you than with them. Personally, I don’t tend to encounter lots of easily offended people nowadays, but that may be simply because I understand the basics of not behaving offensively. (Here in the Pit, of course, I don’t bother.)
[/QUOTE]
'Struth! I’m noticing you have a habit of bringing a lot of good sense to your posts, and this is no exception.
I find myself alternately amused and exasperated by people who insist that they’re “honest”, and that being “honest” requires them to make obnoxious statements - like, say, calling the president a stupid asshole in front of his children (though he certainly is one.) The difference between being “honest” and being honest is that the former involves using a moralizing rationalization for being a total dick. “I’m an honest person, and some people just can’t handle it” is one of the rallying cries of the total dick. But I guess the modern post-PC equivalent is to whine about how everyone’s always so offended these days.
As I’ve mentioned before, this type of non-apology is one of my peeviest peeves. It really pisses me off when someone says, “I apologize if I offended you,” because it puts the burden on the injured party, and makes their reaction the point, rather than the offending transgression. Implied in that construction is, “If my words did NOT offend you, then I do NOT apologize.”
As I’ve mentioned before, this type of non-apology is one of my peeviest peeves. It really pisses me off when someone says, “I apologize if I offended you,” because it puts the burden on the injured party, and makes their reaction the point, rather than the offending transgression. Implied in that construction is, “If my words did NOT offend you, then I do NOT apologize.”
–and as far as saying “I’m sorry” about something that is not your fault, that’s not the same as apologizing. You can say “I’m sorry for your trouble” without a suggestion of accepting responsibility for it. It’s often the gracious thing to do, blink.
[QUOTE=1920s Style “Death Ray”]
Just like there are plenty of Kiwis who would be offended by insults about the All Blacks.
[/QUOTE]
Having lived in New Zealand I certainly agree with that. The simple fact is that there are people in both New Zealand and Australia who obsessively identify with their national teams and will consider any negative comment about the teams’ members or performance as a personal slight, no matter how justified the comment is. It’s pretty sad I think, but that’s just how it is.
[QUOTE=Manda JO]
But you know your words offended. So say "I am sorry THAT my words offended members of my team:
[/QUOTE]
Exactly. You know that you did offend someone, otherwise you wouldn’t be saying any more about it. That is a separate issue from whether you still hold to your original statement.
BTW, this issue has come up in the pit before.
I am not going to spend my day here defending myself. I have had all that crap before at work. For you who do not live in Australia, New Zealanders and Australians have a friendly rivalry. There are many NZs in Australia and Australians in NZ. We tease each other about sporting prowess. It is in no way like between USA and USSR was.
I have lived of and on in Australia for about 8 years and have had banter with Aussies about sport without any hassle until this latest job. There are some weirdos here at this job.
As for saying sorry for others at my company, I refuse. For one thing if I say sorry, I am admitting to wrongdoing. I may say “I am sorry if you had a bad experience with my company”. But I would not say like my co-workers do “I am sorry that my company’ rep ripped you off or short-changed you or made a huge mistake”. The customer just rings me and complains about another worker. I have no evidence that the customer is right or deluded. So I do not say sorry.
In fact one of my pet peeves is people saying sorry but not fixing the problem. Example-in the restaurant waiter brings me the wrong drink. Says sorry, but does not bring me the right drink unless I ask. I don’t care about “sorry”. It does not help. Bring me the right drink.
Same when I call my phone company. People say sorry a million times. I just think -stop saying sorry and fix my problem.
I try to do the same at work. Customer calls with some problem caused by another worker. I try to solve the problem and give the customer good service. “Sorry” does not help solve the problem.
[QUOTE=Dominic Mulligan]
Is it really reasonable to believe that expressing the opinion that the Australian cricket team are arrogant would cause offence to people not in anyway connected with the players on the team?
[/QUOTE]
Yes
[QUOTE=blinkingblinking]
. . . For one thing if I say sorry, I am admitting to wrongdoing. . . .
[/QUOTE]
So, if your friend’s dad dies, and you say, “I’m sorry for your loss,” you’re admitting to killing him?
One day, Matthew/Matthieu, you will find yourself in a position where you are hounded for an apology by people who do not have your best interests at heart, and then you will appreciate better why people do not just come out and say, “I’m sorry; I was wrong”.
[QUOTE=roger thornhill]
One day, Matthew/Matthieu, you will find yourself in a position where you are hounded for an apology by people who do not have your best interests at heart, and then you will appreciate better why people do not just come out and say, “I’m sorry; I was wrong”.
[/QUOTE]
Why let jerks dictate how you behave in polite society?
[QUOTE=lissener]
So, if your friend’s dad dies, and you say, “I’m sorry for your loss,” you’re admitting to killing him?
[/QUOTE]
I have always found that turn of phrase very odd. I do not think it is a common way of talking in New Zealand. The answer to your question is I never say “I am sorry” to someone who has had a friend,relative,cat die. I may say that is too bad or My sympathy to you and your family or I was saddened to hear of X’s death,
It was with a great sense of loss that I learned of her death etc etc.
I do not say sorry unless I am saying sorry for something I did wrong.
Do not assume everyone speaks the same as you.
Can this thread get back to the original OP rather than going on about me. I did not intend to hijack this thread. I was just trying to give an example
[QUOTE=roger thornhill]
One day, Matthew/Matthieu, you will find yourself in a position where you are hounded for an apology by people who do not have your best interests at heart, and then you will appreciate better why people do not just come out and say, “I’m sorry; I was wrong”.
[/QUOTE]
Um, what? Why would you apologize at all if you’re being hounded for an apology that’s not deserved? Uck, slimy insincerity is nearly as bad as blinkingblinking’s use of “honesty” to defend being an asshole.
[QUOTE=blinkingblinking]
I do not say sorry unless I am saying sorry for something I did wrong.
Do not assume everyone speaks the same as you.
[/quote]
So you’ve made up a new, arbitrary definition of “sorry” that excludes one of its common uses? And you’re arguing based upon that definition?
Probably not.
Any opinion or even choice of words has the potential to offend. I have a cousin who won’t let her child use the word “stupid.” And that’s fine, if that floats her boat. But if I come out of a movie and announce to my compatriots “That was stupid.” there’s a non-zero chance that someone like my cousin will overhear, and, wanting to shield their little precious from horrible “meanie” words, will take offense.
And if this hypothetical person confronted me about it, I might reasonably say “Sorry if you took offense.” Which is a polite way of saying : “This is not my problem. I don’t have to redact 50% of my vocabulary just to make sure you don’t get mildly upset. And I don’t intend to. Nevertheless, I find it regrettable that you are upset, and were I given a magic wand to sprinkle pixie dust at will and give people happy thoughts, rest assured you’d be first on the list.”
[QUOTE=CandidGamera]
Any opinion or even choice of words has the potential to offend. I have a cousin who won’t let her child use the word “stupid.” And that’s fine, if that floats her boat. But if I come out of a movie and announce to my compatriots “That was stupid.” there’s a non-zero chance that someone like my cousin will overhear, and, wanting to shield their little precious from horrible “meanie” words, will take offense.
And if this hypothetical person confronted me about it, I might reasonably say “Sorry if you took offense.” Which is a polite way of saying : “This is not my problem. I don’t have to redact 50% of my vocabulary just to make sure you don’t get mildly upset. And I don’t intend to. Nevertheless, I find it regrettable that you are upset, and were I given a magic wand to sprinkle pixie dust at will and give people happy thoughts, rest assured you’d be first on the list.”
[/QUOTE]
That’s fine. There’s a difference between trying to respect someone’s feelings - even if, in this case, they’re wacko - and trying to weasel out of an apology that’s actually deserved. (Incidentally, what the fuck is up with people who try to teach their children that “stupid” is a bad word?) In the case that matt_mcl cites, the dude should have apologized, and he didn’t. What he said was unacceptable, though the reigning moral relativism of the SDMB probably won’t make that a popular opinion. What he said was grossly offensive, and it merited an apology. Comparisons to situations in which people are upset over non-issues aren’t terribly illuminating when contrasted with something that is important.
[QUOTE=Excalibre]
That’s fine. There’s a difference between trying to respect someone’s feelings - even if, in this case, they’re wacko - and trying to weasel out of an apology that’s actually deserved. (Incidentally, what the fuck is up with people who try to teach their children that “stupid” is a bad word?) In the case that matt_mcl cites, the dude should have apologized, and he didn’t. What he said was unacceptable, though the reigning moral relativism of the SDMB probably won’t make that a popular opinion. What he said was grossly offensive, and it merited an apology. Comparisons to situations in which people are upset over non-issues aren’t terribly illuminating when contrasted with something that is important.
[/QUOTE]
I wouldn’t necessarily disagree on the specifc case presented in the OP. However. Everyone’s threshhold of “non-issue” varies. Substantially. Such as the fellow with the cricket team. And I’m seeing a lot of contempt for so-called “unpologies” in this thread, even in such cases.
When i read the OP, i was in full agreement with it. I do hate the non-apology apology, especially when it’s done by some weaseling politician.
But…
There are some things that reasonable people should learn not to get offended about, and i think that blinkingblinking’s situation is a perfect example.
Firstly, let me say, as an Australian, that the Australian cricket team does contain a disproportionate number of arrogant assholes, and has for about the last decade or so. They are well-known in the cricket world for their unsportsmanlike sledging on the field, and for some selfish and inconsiderate antics off it. Quite a few of them are total jerkoffs, to the extent that i and quite a few Aussie cricket fans that i know began to hope they would lose just to take them down a peg or two.
But even if they weren’t arrogant, calling them arrogant should in no way be interpreted as a slur on all Australians, and it’s abolutely ridiculous that anyone would feel that way. I remember during the last summer Olympics that we had a couple of threads here about the American basketball team, with plenty of people—Americans and otherwise—agreeing that many members of that team were arrogant and over-confident. None of this was meant to reflect on Americans as a whole, and i don’t remember a single American taking offence.
[QUOTE=1920s Style “Death Ray”]
I think you don’t get it. You should be apologising for being rude. “I insulted the Aussie cricket team and I should have realised that that may offend you. I am sorry for offending you.”
The offence you are apologising for is not having the thoughtfulness to keep possibly offensive comments to yourself.
[/quote]
Sorry, that’s crap. Anyone who takes a comment about a third party that they don’t even know—a fucking sports team, no less—and gets that offended by it is an idiot. Ideally, insteading of giving a non-apology apology, blinkingblinking should have laughed in their faces and told them to get over themselves. Of course, that can be an unwise in a work situation, so the non-apology, in that case, seems to be a reasonable solution.
[QUOTE=1920s Style “Death Ray”]
P.S., I am also an NZer living in Australia, I’d like to think I wouldn’t be so stupid as to insult the cricket team around other Australians, of course it’ll offend some of them. Just like there are plenty of Kiwis who would be offended by insults about the All Blacks.
[/QUOTE]
Well, you need to hang out with people who don’t take themselves so seriously. I know plenty of Aussies, many of whom are huge cricket fans. Hell, a couple of them can name the members of every Ashes touring team back to 1930. And not a single one of them would take offence if you called the current Australian cricket team arrogant; in fact, most would agree with you wholeheartedly. And not one of them would be stupid enough to think that it was a personal insult directed at Australians in general.