appropriate moderating in GD?

The BBQ Pit
21

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Jodi *
**

Not really, Jodi. Despite the thread’s title the Jack-ass Dean Tyler is actually a good Pit thread in that it’s not just people telling JDT “fuck you” ad nauseam. It contains very astute critiques of JDT’s logic from many obviously frustrated posters. Your “Excuse me, my good man” versus “goat felching fuck-face” argument is a bifurcation. I think we cover the middle ground quite well.

*Originally posted by Jodi *
**

Sigh. I remember a time long ago when the Pit mods were accused of undermoderating. Allowing too many insults. Maybe the Pit mods and the GD mods should switch. :slight_smile:

22

David, please, could we have just a little less paranoid conspiracy rhetoric and at least the recognition that some people might legitimately disagree with a moderating decision, without you guys feeling you have to circle the wagons?

If you feel like the mods are being attacked – which posts like the above seem to indicate you do – let me point out AGAIN that it was Andros who decided to open this can of worms. Not me, and not Satan. Whatever your problem is with him, I don’t know; but I do know that (a) I’ve made my position as clear as I probably can; (b) it wasn’t that big a deal in the first place (at least to me); and © it doesn’t make any difference anyway. But I do think that threads like this, inviting second-guessing and criticism of moderating decisions, are counter-productive because they make both the moderators and the objecting posters feel attacked, and they serve no purpose whatsoever. And that said, I don’t think I’ll be participating any further. Ya’ll have fun.

23

Wow. Saving my quotes. Want an autograph too?

In any event, thanks for not answering my question about how this thread is any different than this one.

Yer pal,
Satan

*TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Six months, three weeks, 22 hours, 36 minutes and 10 seconds.
8197 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,024.71.
Extra time with Drain Bead: 4 weeks, 11 hours, 5 minutes.

David B used me as a cite!*

24

Well, with respect, you don’t and here’s why: Just as apparently no insult is okay in GD, there appears to be very few (if any) insults that are NOT okay in the Pit. So I have the choice between not being able to tell someone they’re an being an idiot (oh, gosh, I might insult him!) in GD or doing it in the Pit and risk being called the vilest sorts of names in return – something that’s already happened to me personally once, and I can tell you the mods were not nearly so quick to step in in that case, even though I requested them to.

In other words, neither GD nor the Pit apparently recognizes that there is a gradient to argument and, yes, to insult, and that in the real world while it is not true that NOTHING is allowed, it is also not true that EVERYTHING is allowed. Where can we find that reality reflected here? Here it’s all or nothing. You can go to a tea party or a dog fight; those are your only choices.

25

Jodi said:

Jodi, I don’t know if you missed it, but Satan admitted that he purposely broke the rules. Others who must know better similarly broke the rules. I don’t think it’s at all incorrect to say what I said.

I didn’t say I feel like we’re being attacked. I think it’s pretty obvious that a couple people are upset over the way we handled a situation and some are complaining about it in a more mature way than others.

Actually, I would suggest that you do know, because the only “problem” is the way he has been acting in the two threads in question here, all of which has been in public.

I won’t disagree. However, the second-guessing started in the thread itself, not here. It was actually proper to move it here if it was going to continue. If it was not going to continue, nobody was forced to post a message here.

26

Thanks for not reading my response to your question, Satan.

And another difference is that no one posted in that thread with the intent to have it moved to the Pit. At least they didn’t come out and admit it:

I think that’s really tacky. I mean, that’s an insult to the moderators and everything we do. I mean if you voice a disagreement with the way a thread is being moderated, that’s one thing. To go out of your way to throw a monkey wrench into the works just because you feel a thread needs to be moved and to therefore make our job here just a little more laborious is just plain unnecessary.

27

Yes, and andros is starting to regret it. I did not start this thread in order to piss anyone off, nor to bring up old grudges.

You’re right. I was hoping to provide an arena for discussing the philosophy of moderating in this situation, as per the BBQ Pit forum description, rather than inviting attack on Gaudere and David. I guess that didn’t come across very well. I’m not interested in second-guessing, personally, but in looking at what happened, why, and why it annoyed and upset people. The only way to eliminate ignorance, especially amongst ourselves, is through communication. I had hopes of a more positive outcome to the topic. Silly me.

So, I’m sorry, Jodi. It really wasn’t my intention at all to create a tempest, or for you (or anyone) to become embroiled in any hard feelings.

I’m sorry, Gaudere and David. I hope neither of you thought I was attacking you–I wasn’t. Hopefully you both know me better than that. For the record, I think the moderating decisions y’all made were consistent and well advertised, and I don’t have any problems with them. I wanted to open a thread where Satan and Jodi and anyone else could comment without having to open a thread and thus appearing to be aggressors.

’Gene, and chance of shutting this puppy down? I guess it was just ill-advised to begin with.

28

Jodi:

::boggles:: Jodi, I don’t think any GDer considers GD a “tea party”. Things get extremely heated in many threads; heck, you’ve participated in a great deal of them. I don’t see the need to create a forum where you can call someone “offensively stupid” yet not get called a “cunt” in return. Sheesh, if people think the line we draw is fuzzy now…

As to “man-hater” being an insult: it’s borderline. I personally put it in the same class as “bigot”, “homophobe” and “racist”, which we do not warn people about either. It is saying “you are irrationally predjudiced about X group of people, and thus your argument is weak.” I don’t like to see it, but I won’t haul out the big guns for it either.

I edited your post since at that point we had two warnings by David, one edit by me of Satan’s “he’s the biggest dick here” comment to Jack and one other warning by me. I thought it was quite clear what the rules were in this thread, and that they were going to be enforced. I realize it pissed you off. However, if people are not going to follow the rules after they have been repeatedly pointed out, I’m going to escalate my actions. It does little good to simply warn someone if they ignore you.

Perhaps I shouldn’t have moved Rook’s thread to the Pit. However, after I threatened to send it to the Pit if people continued insulting, I open it to see three (IIRC) more insults. So I booted it. Go ahead and flame me for it if you like; it will at least be a change of topic. ::shrug:: However, deliberately trying to get a GD thread moved to the Pit because you feel it is inconvienient to you to click over to an existing Pit thread is NOT something I wish to encourage. I do not want people who cannot debate rationally and calmly feeling they can break the rules of GD and flame in a thread to get it moved to the Pit.

29

Note: some of those "you"s above were generic "you"s, and not directed towards Jodi; she didn’t bring up the particular topic I mention.

30

In Satan’s defense, I believe the “existing pit thread” did not exist when he made the insulting post that you deleted.
Frankly, the moment JDT referred to Bill Clinton as a “serial rapist,” the thread should have either been moved or closed. Sure, the guy had been spouting baseless assertions from the get-go, but I think that libelous baseless assertions should be just about where you guys draw the line.

You DID notice that, right?

31

*Originally posted by andros *

Well said. I totally dig that. The fault was not in your intent but in its execution by other posters.

The opportunity to discuss the nuts and bolts of moderation is healthy overall, and is one of the strongest raisons d’etre of the Pit. I don’t want to give the impression that the mods are uncomfortable with posters voicing disagreement with their actions.

I have no problem with your OP or your reasoning for posting it. It gives posters an opportunity to voice objections and ask questions about moderation and gives the mods an opportunity to explain why they do what they do when they do it. I’d hate to think that the SDMB is a place where people think what the mods do is irrational, random and beyond criticism.

That’s why, andros, I hope you don’t mind if I left this thread open, even if only for a little while longer provided everyone stick to the issue raised in the OP. I’d like to give others the opportunity to respond to issues that have been brought up along the way.

Seeing as how andros’ intent was to discuss moderation issues vis a vis GD and the Pit, I would hope that future posters in this thread keep their responses to that issue alone. If this thread gets ugly and personal again and I see old scabs starting to be picked at then I will galdly lock it up.

That sound fair to you, 'dros?

32

Yeah, I know. However, the fact that he knowingly broke the rules–as he admitted–and posted a second time attempting to get the thread thrown in the Pit does not exactly make him a shining star of message board moral rectitude. Quite frankly, he’s a bright guy and he’s been posting in GD longer than I have…he knows what’s allowed and what’s not.

Um, I thought we’d always allowed “libelous baseless assertations” about public figures. Certainly we have enough “Mr./Ms. PublicFigure is a liar/retard/socialist!” comments around. We generally only concern ourselves with insults–or accusations–about actual posters to a thread. The proper response, IMHO, is demanding he show proof of his assertion, which several people did.

33

The strange thing is, I very rarely agree with David on ANYTHING- but I am 100% behind him here- altho i guess he could have moved even faster… :smiley:

Note that as soon as Satan has just one other poster agreeing with him, “the people have spoken” and everyone is 100% behind him. What is strange- is that he is perfectly capable of defending himself & argueing his own points, but he likes to throw in that “everyone is behind me on this” a lot.

Of course, I have a “persecution complex”- so just ignore me. :smiley:

34

JDT = Troll…

and I’m sure he is loving the fight…

cast… spin… reeel

35

I don’t think that’s what Satan said.

What Satan did IMO was to light up a smoke (yeah I know but it fits so I’m using it) coz he knew/thought the plane was crashing. This isn’t the same as the sabotage you seem to be accusing him of.

As to the OP. Nope I’ve no problem with moderators moderating at all.

36

Okay, see, now maybe I can defend myself a bit here.

See, I this happen. I saw the striking simularirties between both original posters - both new, both one-trick ponies, both highly inflamatory and prone to flights of logical fancy - and I naturally assumed that since the Gay one went into The Pit that the Penis one would follow suit.

You wanna know why?

(And if you accuse me of kissing ass, I don’t care, I’ll tell you to blow me, but) you guys are generally very consistant in your moderating duties. I have seen you both handle friends and foes with the same justice, and even Ii have been rarely called out.

As such, since I saw that both threads were essentially interchangable on almost every level that I posted a Pit-like post on purpose. Not to “get” the mods to move it there, but because I thought the precedent had been established and, as I said, you guys are usually quite good at following precedents.

So, to allay any fears: I was not being a dick on purpose. I just figured that the thread was destined there, and in my defence, I have seen people post things in the wrong forum and have other posters reply “well, this is going to be moved soon,” answer the thread according to the new home and have it moved without further ado. Yes, most of these situations come from GQ, but that’s still a function of this board as a whole.

Alpha, I am sorry I did nott see you reply to my question. I was looking for the mods from that forum to answer it. Not that I specifically ignored you, I just didn’t look for it in your post and I missed it. Thatnks for replying.

As for you, headupthewolvesass, I was using “the people have spoken” as a phrase in jest. I realize we did not have a run-off election, I was merely making a point as to how many people were being scolded in that thread, not just one person telling JackOff to fuck off and die.

I do hope that I am back in the good graces of you mods now…

Yer pal,
Satan

*TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Six months, three weeks, one day, 10 minutes and 33 seconds.
8200 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,025.03.
Extra time with Drain Bead: 4 weeks, 11 hours, 20 minutes.

David B used me as a cite!*

37

I simulposted with yojimbo, but he pretty much summed it up for me, probably better than I did in my Manifesto above.

[sub]The check’s in the mail, yojimbo…[/sub]

:slight_smile:

Yer pal,
Satan

*TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Six months, three weeks, one day, 14 minutes and 2 seconds.
8200 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,025.05.
Extra time with Drain Bead: 4 weeks, 11 hours, 20 minutes.

David B used me as a cite!*

38

Harrumph. Well, I was actually referenceing David and Alpha comments, which are in line with my perception. Satan’s second insulting post clearly states he wants the thread moved to the Pit. So we have motive. He knows insults are what get a thread moved to the Pit. He knows he is breaking the rules by posting them in GD. Nevertheless he posts them anyway. I believe his motive for being insulting in his post was to push to get it moved to the Pit like he wanted, since he obviously knew his post was inappropriate for GD.

If he simply thought the thread was headed to the Pit immediately upon its landing in GD and that was his reasoning for his first post, I must rebuke him for premature assumptions. I don’t care if you think a thread will end up in the Pit; as long as it’s in GD, you should obey the rules of the forum. I don’t want people deciding on their own “Oh, this thread’ll go to the Pit, so I can post whatever I want.”

39

All this, and then he was warned? These direct personal attacks strike me as immediate Pit fodder.

And what exactly would have been the loss by sending this to the Pit? This guy has shown virtually no evidence for any of his claims, brings up extraneous matters and then blames others for introducing them, belittles virtually everyone who doesn’t buy into the anti-circ dogma, asserts something as fact and contradicts it in the next post, etc., etc., etc. It’s not as though there’s a great debate going on–there’s people on both sides of an issue lined up against an dimwitted ignoramus.

All that said, keeping the gratuitous insults to a minimum has certainly kept the hilarity at a very high level…

40

Jack Dean Tyler is a very frustrating debater. He has an entrenched view about circumcision that is significantly different from most everyone else, and any appeals to reason, logic or evidence appear not to move him in the slightest. Having inconsistencies in his arguments pointed out to him leaves him unfazed. Because of the depths of his convictions and his insensitivity to the common understanding on circumcision and other related issues, he says things that are simply repugnant.

Given all that, how should we react. One way is to keep using the tools of logic and reason to argue with him. Although it has become brutally and painfully apparent that we will be unable to change JDT’s views on the issue no matter how hard we try. There is some ignorance so strongly entrenched that it simply cannot be eradicated.

However, despite JDT’s intractability, continuing the argument does some good. As the number of lurkers in any thread always greatly exceeds the number of participants, continued discussion assists those undecided about the issue. Moreover, as arguments get pushed into the more and more outlandish, their infirmities become more and more obvious.

Though continued rational argument is one way to react, another way is throw up hands in frustration and to point out that he is an insensitive, intractable, irritating and irrational idiot. Though this insult is richly deserved, it does nothing to move the debate forward. As logic has failed to convince JDT, it is unlikely that invective will.

One thing particularly annoying about JDT is that he does not appear to be a troll. It seems that his views, however outlandish, are deeply-held, and his arguments appear to have some rational basis within the confines of his highly delusional world. He makes offensive points not to be offensive, but rather because his absurd convictions fail to allow him to see the reason he gives offense. His continuing to stay and argue in the primary thread and
apparent decision not to join in the Pit thread butress the conclusion that he is not a troll.

Given all of this, I think the differing forums on the board give us an ideal opportunity to react in both ways. In GD, we can, and should, argue rationally to the point of frustration, and leave the blatant fallacies in JDT’s arguments apparent to all who view them. At the point of frustration, we can go to the Pit and pelt him with the invective he deserves. Unfortunately, JDT does not appear to desire to come into the Pit to catch the rotten fruit hurled at him. However, this is no reason to take take what we wish to throw back into GD where he is hanging around.

On the SDMB, we have both rules and customs. The rules, enforced by the moderators, govern what we can and cannot post in the various forums. The customs, enforced by social pressure, govern how most of us react. Among the customs of the SDMB is that you will argue consistently and with logic within GD and that when called to the Pit, you will respond. However, despite JDT’s not following these customs, there is no reason for anyone to break the rules of the SDMB to force compliance by social pressure.