Leave Transgender women out of it? But that’s what we ware talking about.
If you are asking me if its a perfect analogy, then no. Its not a perfect analogy. If Women in thongs and bikini tops stop going to that particular night club to drink and flirt with the rapists, then the rapists might decide there aren’t enough women in thongs and bikini tops coming in to flirt and get drunk with them and move to another night club.
How does that apply to transgender women dating?
I think we’re confusing the analogy for the thing that is being analogized. We are actually not talking about rape. We are talking about why saying that something is risky is not the same thing as blaming the victim.
Either use the analogy or don’t use the analogy, but don’t be sort-of using it and then digressing from it with “oh but well we aren’t really talking about rape we’re talking about transgender women dating”.
This sort of personal attack serves no purpose in the discussion. You seem to enjoy posting in this manner, but you need to figure a better way to respond.
Back off from personal remarks and keep to the actual issues in the thread.
[ /Moderating ]
Well that’s dismissive. But okay, who do you take seriously, then? Psychiatrists? Medical doctors in general? Medical ethicists? Neurologists? For the record, Wikipedia is not agreeing with your position, and is also not something you should be crediting with “gravitas” if you reject the opinion of psychologists outright.
Yet you continue to exclude the agency of the potential attacker in apportioning responsibility for taking action, and you do so for ludicrous reasons. You literally compared going on a date - a common human interaction - with running around a busy road in the dark dressed in black. Are you saying that in the latter case you wouldn’t “blame the victim” for getting hit by a car? Because even saying “they shouldn’t have done that” is blaming the victim.
You also keep ignoring the other possible consequences of revealing one’s transgender status to someone one hasn’t even had a conversation with. In fact doing so is more analogous to running across a busy road than dating without notifying in advance, given the odds of a literally devastating outcome.
The concept of gender to which you link is grammatical gender. The concept we’re talking about is sociological gender.
Words have more than one meaning, news at 9.
Well then, explain to me how this digression into rape helps explain anything about transgender dating because I don’t see it. The analogy was brought up by YOUR side because they thought my admonitions about not engaging in risky behaviour was “victim-blaming” I just worked with the analogy brought up by YOUR side. If you think YOUR side should drop the bullshit “victim-blaming” line of argument, then please direct your comments to them.
No, its not. Warning someone of risky behaviour is not victim blaming. If violence from dating total strangers is as much of a problem as you say, then it is not victim blaming to ask “why don’t you stop dating total strangers”
Its not an adequate response to say “well we should get those total strangers to stop breaking the law and being violent” Its already against the law, there’s not much more we can do to prevent that violence that doesn’t involve changing social attitudes and prejudices. Being dishonest about being transgender when you go on dates with total strangers does not seem like an effective way to change those attitudes.
Once again, we are back to dating total strangers. I don’t know that it is more risky to say you are transgender before you meet a total stranger than to tell them after you have started a romantic interaction with them. Do “out” transgender women experience more violence on dates than those who tell their dates after their dates have developed attraction to them? I don’t know if there are statistics anywhere but if you know of any, I’d like to see them.
Not in and of itself, no.
You may say to a transgender person “I think you would be safer to make a specific point that you are indeed transgender in your dating profile”.
Suppose the transgender person says “I’m not comfortable being put into a position where it is only OK for me to go forward into the world if I’m clearly labeled. I’m not a danger that the world needs to be warned about. People — including people who date —are occasionally going to encounter transgender people. Deal with it”.
That’s where you nod and accept that there are more factors involved here than the safety issue you brought up, and you accept their right to make that call.
Out transgender women sometimes experience gender-inspired violence when trying to use a public restroom. It’s really not fair in this day and age to expect all transgender women to be out in public, like on a dating site.
Now, would it be wise for a transgender women to bring up the topic before getting naked with a new partner? I certainly think so. I think it would be wise for someone with a colostomy bag to mention that, too. Not because I expect anyone to behave violently to discovering that info, but because I don’t think it’s wise to surprise a new partner too much when undressing. It just seems like there’s a risk of emotional hurt on both sides when that happens.
But there’s typically some interactions between “browse a dating profile” and “get naked together”. That’s when I’d expect a disclosure of unusual genitalia and other personal medical information to occur.
If you would be really upset to go on a coffee date with someone on a dating site and discover that you don’t want to have sex with them, you probably shouldn’t be using dating sites. There are all sorts of things that might come up. The person might smell bad, or drone on endlessly about some exceedingly boring subject, or have a pet alligator or…
It’s impossible to claim that there is no organic basis for transgenderism-- i.e. that every person is naturally cis-gendered, except for some impairment. After all, prenatal development transpires in distinct stages regarding mental and physical development, and thus the unique processes of orientation, identity and anatomy, can quite conceivably be entirely distinct and interchangeable. So one can:
[ol]
[li]be attracted to males or females,[/li][li]identify as male or female, and[/li][li]appear male or female,[/li][/ol]
in any combination, without any universal relationship among these variables (i.e. the standard Judeo-Christian claim that men naturally appear male, identify as male, and are attracted to females; and vice-versa for females-- no exceptions).
This claim appeared with the saturation-phase of global habitation about halfway through the Agrarian Era, when rivalries began over farmland, and population-gaps began concerns over breeding-habits, with universal monogamy and child-rearing becoming mandatory; whereas beforehand, polysexuality seemed an evolutionary means to prevent inbreeding among a hunter-gatherer society in which numbers were limited along with food. Thus, deaths of males might lead to females acting the role of males, and vice-versa, along with sexual orientation preventing inbreeding by limiting extended-family size.
I’m not trying to pass a law saying that transgender folks have to disclose before they date. I say that not disclosing is dishonest and then the response was that it can be dangerous disclosing to a total stranger. That’s where we veered into the topic of whether I was blaming the victim after i said that dating a total stranger is dangerous when you are transgender.
IOW, the safety issue was not brought up by me. It was brought up by the proponents of not disclosing transgenderism to people you are dating…
Or beat up transgender women. If the pool of prospective dates on a dating site are such a rough crown maybe you need to find a different dating pool. One that is maybe a little less anonymous.
I know what there is to know about The Crying Game.
Dill can take it… just not in the face.
Judeo-Christian?
Or it is the result of the overwhelming majority of people fitting pretty well into the sex they were born into and being attracted to the opposite sex. Otherwise I think its pretty hard to explain how almost every culture in human history has gravitated towards this "“Judeo-Christian” claim.
AFAICT, Jews seem to have all sorts of rules that deal with transgenderism. In the end, if you are in such distress about your gender that your life is in danger, many things are permitted that would not be normally permitted. I think this is the stance of a lot of Jews from reform to Orthodox. And depending on the denomination of christianity, transgenderism is not only recognized it is accepted.
Yeah, like followers of the Bible
If you are 100% historically illiterate. This website claims to be “combating ignorance since 1973,” but the boards seem to specialize in perpetuating it.
You would have everyone believe that the Bible expressly enforces Universal heterosexual monogamy while punishing everything else as original sin, solely to waste ink and paper, since you claim that virtually everybody was doing it anyway. It’s hard to believe that anyone can be that illiterate about pre-christian history, and how Society was pretty much one universal orgy with little regard to gender or anything else.
okay, then we simply disagree. Depending on how well the team gender person passes, it may or may not be wise, but I certainly don’t think it’s dishonest.
And I’ll reiterate, if you will be really upset to discover you aren’t sexually compatible with someone you meet on a first date, you shouldn’t be using dating sites/apps.
There are rapists on dating sites, who drug and rape cis women on dates, too. There are certain risks in dating total strangers, as you point out. Yet most single adults post-college do it these days.
Anyway, anyone who would beat up a first date upon discovering she’s trans (or anyone who would rape a first date, or otherwise express unprovoked violence) should be in prison. I understand that they aren’t. There are violent predators and violently unstable people out there. But given the popularity of on-line dating, I have to assume they aren’t a huge fraction of the dating-site population.
Tl;dr:
Neither the undisclosed transwomen nor the man who is disappointed to find his date is trans is at fault, imo. First dates include some unwanted surprises. But a man who would be furious to be so disappointed shouldn’t be dating on-line, at least not without disclosing his status.
And no, I don’t think 80% of the population would be furious. Furious is a small subset of disappointed (which might well be 80%)
And apparently it’s only the transgender person who doesn’t disclose their personal medical information who is dishonest. But not the person who hides the fact they won’t have a relationship with a transgender person - they’re somehow not dishonest in the least…because, reasons. It’s almost Trumpian in its inconsistency.