Are all transgendered people mentally ill?

Great Debates
101

Thanks for the IMHO post, and I read the article you were blogging about. I think your one-sentence summary may be slightly misleading about the actual findings of the article, which says in the last sentence of the abstract:

In other words, although sex-based structural differences in the brain are variable enough to preclude categorizing brains with a simple binary classification, they do exist. The article continues:

Judging from the links at the bottom of that page, this is part of an ongoing debate about whether brain sex/gender differences warrant using a binary “female vs. male” brain classification system. Nobody’s disputing the existence of documented sex/gender brain differences in themselves.

102

That’s a fair take on it, Kimstu. In my blog post, I make that same assertion (eventually): that although the popular press has tended to run with the idea that this research means “no differences”, that’s not actually what the research says.

104

I think the whole transitioning thing is considered the “cure” or at least, treatment. And I think quite frankly as I said, it’s better being defined as an illness, whether mental or other, because that makes it easier to get treated for it. (Insurance coverage, for one)

105

The population of black women and Asian men that face challenges in the dating market eclipses the population of transgender folks who are having dating issues. And frankly the difference between skin color and being transgender are much more profound. It can be really hard to have kids with someone who is transgender.

If you want to talk about violence, discrimination on the job, etc. Then I’m right there next to you. But frankly, I think its probably more honest to tell someone you are transgender before your first date. Because being transgender is in fact a big deal, its probably one of the defining characteristics of your identity.

106

I don’t understand what you mean here. Increasing society’s acceptance of transgender identity will lead more people to change their sexual orientation?

107

Nope. A heterosexual man doesn’t become gay just because he dates a heterosexual transgender woman, whether or not she’s had SRS, and the same goes for a heterosexual woman dating a heterosexual transgender man.

Of course it’s impossible to make categorical statements about such a variable concept as sexual orientation, but I think it’s safe to say that in general, sexual attraction to a member of the gender one prefers depends much more on what the person is like and how they present than on the specifics of their genitalia.

I’m not denying that there are many people who could be initially attracted to a transgender person and then lose all interest in them on discovering that their original equipment was different from expectations, and if that’s how they feel (as long as they’re respectful and kind about it), then I don’t see anything wrong with it.

But many heterosexual people do not lose interest in an opposite-gender partner on discovering them to be transgender, and my contention is that this attitude will become more widespread as general social acceptance of transgender people increases.

Some examples:

What It’s Like Dating a Trans Woman as a Straight, Cisgender Male: An Interview With My Boyfriend

Does Dating Someone Transgender Make You Gay?"

108

Uh, true but irrelevant? Increased social acceptance of transgender people does not preclude increased social acceptance of interracial dating.

If you’re a transgender person and it’s very important to you for people you’re dating to be aware that you’re transgender, then I agree you ought to tell potential dates right away.

But if you’re a cisgender person and it’s very important to you not to date transgender people, then I think it’s on you to put that information out there right away. Put it in your online dating profile, mention it in the first phone call, whatever. If you have clearly specified that you don’t want to date transgender people and a potential date pursues you while hiding their transgender status, then I agree they’re not being honest.

But don’t just expect that transgender people should adjust their behavior to conform to your preferences when you haven’t even made your preferences known. If transgender identity is an automatic dealbreaker for you in a dating relationship, it’s your responsibility to be upfront about that.

109

Sorry, but i disagree with you here. I think it’s safe to say that in general, sexual attraction has a lot to do with genitalia.

I don’t think this will be the case. Societal acceptance will not make the vast majority of men suddenly think “Hmmm, I guess my partner having a penis is not so bad”

110

Why wouldn’t it be important to make sure people you are dating know you are transgender? What would be the plan in a situation where it wasn’t important? Just never tell the person you are dating? Wait a while? Something else?

111

I don’t believe I did cast blame on those rejecting us for not wanting to date or have a relationship with us. It is, sadly, what it is.

But part of it is a societal stigma that is contributed to by those spreading FUD. The more negativity in the press, from our President and other Republicans, from hate groups, or from well-meaning but ignorant people, the more stigma is attached to us. Who bears responsibility for those contributing factors?

112

Quoted for truth.

Cisgender people can post all they want to how they aren’t bigots, but when you ask that they be honest and forthright and put in their dating profile “no transgender persons,” suddenly that’s a violation of their privacy, and why should they have to be honest about their feelings…and more excuses. There aren’t enough rolleyes.

113

This seems strange to me. Do I also have to put “no men” and “No one under the age of consent” as well?

It seems to me that certain things would be understood, unless specifically mentioned as something a person was looking for.

And that’s bigoted?

114

Maybe not, but as I noted, it’s likely to increase the number of straight men who think that way. (And also to increase the number of straight men who are no longer afraid to admit that they think that way. Lots of straight men even nowadays are happily dating transgender women; they just tend to conceal her transgender status for fear of social repercussions.)

Nobody’s arguing that all or even most straight men will or ought to want to date a transgender woman. I’m just pointing out that once the general social stigma about transgender status diminishes, there will be more men who are okay with the idea.

I don’t know why this seems so odd to you. It’s a routine fact of human behavior that increasing societal acceptance in general tends to increase individual participation in all sorts of behaviors, from same-sex marriage to body piercing to eating raw fish. Nobody’s saying that all straight men have to want to date transgender women, any more than anybody’s saying that everybody has to like sushi.

I’m just pointing out the quite commonplace observation that as a particular behavior becomes less of a social taboo, typically more individuals will want to do it.

Um, for the same reasons it might not be important to make sure people you are dating know lots of other things about you?

Some people don’t reveal that they’ve been married and divorced; some people don’t reveal that they’ve had a facelift or a boob job; some people don’t reveal that they’re very wealthy or were the Chamonix ski jumping junior champion in 1988, or whatever.

It is entirely up to individuals to decide what they want to voluntarily reveal about themselves to people they’re dating. (As long as it isn’t, e.g., STD status in a sexual relationship where the partner could be infected, the non-disclosure of which would be actually illegal in many states.)

Likewise, it is entirely up to individuals to decide what they want to declare as important issues or potential dealbreakers in a dating relationship. I repeat: if you make it plain that you don’t want to date a transgender person and a transgender person nonetheless pursues a relationship with you while hiding their transgender identity, they are being dishonest and unethical.

I don’t know, it would depend on the choices of the individual, the nature of the relationship, and whatever they happen to know about the preferences of the person they’re dating.

But that doesn’t change the fact that if you have specific preferences about your dating situation, it’s up to you to make your preferences known. You’re not entitled to demand that potential dating partners should spontaneously tell you specific things about themselves without your even asking about them or making it clear that they’re important to you.

115

It’s been addressed numerous times before, but one might wonder “why would a transgender person not list up-front in 72-point font that they are transgender when dating?”

There are a few answers I can think of.

Foremost, some of us who have transitioned have simply moved on into our normal, everyday lives. If we have passing privilege, then even more so. It’s a medical condition. Should people also be putting foremost in their profiles “I’m a Type I diabetic” or “I have IBS?” Not every single date is a pathway to marriage - many dates are just that, and if you have a common interest with the person and you like them and you think they’re cute…why do you care so much about a transgender history for a simple date?

If the person is pre-op, then IMO YES, there needs to be some explanation prior to any sexual act. Mainly due to the fact that angry, cisgender men beating or murdering pre-op transgender women has almost become competitive sport for some. If they are post-op…why do you care? I can assure you, men cannot tell a natal vagina from a surgically crafted one (hell, they can’t even find the clitoris half the time). I’ve seen LOTS of cisgender and transgender vaginas very up-close and personal, and no I’m not telling any stories. Women can usually tell a crafted penis from a natal one, simply because the state-of-the-art in surgery is still not very good, but not all the time (and remember, Billy Tipton had no penis at all, yet his wives never really knew (or took years to find out)).

If the relationship begins to move toward permanence (as much as anything is permanent in relationships), then there needs to be a talk about how a past life could come forward, about the inability to bear children/father children, etc.

Ultimately, the concern over genitals is often “trans panic” by incredibly fragile homophobic men who believe even thinking a transgender woman is attractive means they are gayer than a $3 bill in the pocket of a Miami Beach doggie hair stylist.

There is a lot of debate in my community over informing versus not. There are many young firebrands who believe that you never need to tell, ever, under any circumstances. I on the other hand believe telling as early as possible is best, because you want to find out if you’re dating a bigot, or dating someone who is interested in more than you can offer them, and because I personally have friends right here in my city who bear the scars of being beaten by angry, cisgender men at the end of a date. My position seems to be a minority one.

Another aspect of those who do not inform is, well, loneliness. Advertising that you’re transgender on a dating site typically lands you chasers (many creepy), hetero couples who are “curious” about a threesome, or other transgender people. As the months and years pass, some of us just want to have any human contact, so we will not mention our past, and hope against all hope that the person we have a first date is kind. But it’s like being in a ticking trap - the further the relationship goes, the more there is to lose when you do come out. The more fear and uncertainty and dread. It can be worse than never having tried. I know people who didn’t tell until the 5th, 7th, 10th date, sometimes even years into the relationship. It almost always ends in tears (the only time it didn’t is when the partner figured it all out very early on, and respectfully never brought it up themselves.)

When I met Fierra on the SDMB, she knew I was trans before our first date - I told her when she asked me out. Her reaction: “Oh cool! Do you like Indian food?”

116

The first seems not only reasonable, but expected - in fact every single dating site I’ve seen asks for sexual orientation. Maybe they don’t on “Southern Baptist Christian Mingle”, but every other site.

The second is a false analogy, since it’s trying to compare an illegal act with being transgender. There’s no need to list all the illegal things you’re not interested, because, duh.

117

If you’re on the “Men Seeking Women” section of a dating website, it’s already clearly indicated that you don’t want to date men. And of course, dating somebody under the age of consent would be illegal, so the dating website’s terms of service are already going to stipulate that that’s not allowed.

But anything not specifically ruled out is potentially possible. If you don’t want to date fat women, or redheaded women, or Baptist women, or tall women, or transgender women, or women older than you are, or conjoined-twin women, or any other specific kind of woman, it is up to you to make your preference known, rather than expecting women to spontaneously reveal any such facts about themselves right from the get-go.

Why would anything about your expectations of your potential dating partners be “understood” if they’re not “specifically mentioned” in some way? Strangers don’t know anything at all about you or what you might like, except what’s specifically indicated in some form or another in your dating profile. And I already pointed out how your examples of “no men” and “no minors” are in fact already specifically indicated in your dating profile.

Well, it might be bigoted, or it might be just plain slow-witted. Expecting transgender people in particular to pre-emptively announce their transgender status as some sort of “freak warning” on dating sites, like a medieval leper having to ring a bell everywhere they go, would be bigoted.

Expecting strangers in general to be able to second-guess your specific dating preferences when you haven’t stated them would be just plain slow-witted.

118

I’ve never dated or slept with a transman, but, as a gay man, I can say that I’ve found many, many of them attractive and would consider it were I single. The NC anti-bathroom-bill campaign was a revelation, because almost every one of the transmen in it were incredibly attractive.

119

I appreciate you answering, but do not appreciate the hyperbole of “72-point font” when I am simply asking a question.

Does having Type I diabetes or IBS mean that you are biologically different than what you present?

I’m not asking because of “trans panic” or thoughts about gayness or whatever. I once spent a great night hanging out with a woman and then hours later right before going to my room, she said “Just so you know, I’m a ladyboy” This was in Thailand, and a direct quote from her, so please no “Hate speech” announcements. I wasn’t mad or angry, just disappointed. Had I known that beforehand, I could have found another woman to go with us who was gender-typical. No big deal to me but disappointing at the end of the night.

This is why my question. Seems like telling right up front would avoid tears and anger later.

120

Of course not. I’m just trying to put this particular issue in perspective. This is not a particularly sympathetic issue compared to the others that were listed. Getting beat up or fired is one thing, getting rejected romantically is another.

So my first date should start with “Hey BTW, are you or have you ever been a dude?”

No. The burden of disclosure is on the transgender person.

That’s silly. It is significant material information that you have and I do not. It is up to you to share that information with me otherwise you are withholding material facts.

121

Sorry, but if I see a profile that says “Woman looking for a man” I would assume she meant a gender-typical man, unless she said otherwise. Not sure why that is so controversial.