Are all transgendered people mentally ill?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Una_Persson

I don’t believe I did cast blame on those rejecting us for not wanting to date or have a relationship with us. It is, sadly, what it is.

But part of it is a societal stigma that is contributed to by those spreading FUD. The more negativity in the press, from our President and other Republicans, from hate groups, or from well-meaning but ignorant people, the more stigma is attached to us. Who bears responsibility for those contributing factors?

What is FUD?

In the context of withholding material information to someone you want to be romantically involved with, what does it matter who bears responsibility for the stigma? Do you think that being transgender is something that the reasonable person would consider a material fact?

Why wouldn’t you share such a material fact? Out of fear of rejection? What’s the plan? Keep the charade going long enough that they fall so far in love with you that they will be able to overcome the stigma and just go with it?

[Slash1972]

@Kimstu

If you’re on the “Men Seeking Women” section of a dating website, it’s already clearly indicated that you don’t want to date men

True. And if I was on the “Men Seeking Transgender” section of a dating website, it would be clear I was looking to date a transgender person. To me, “Men Seeking Women” means “Men Seeking Gender-Typical Women”.

Again, not sure why this is so controversial.

[Kimstu]

@Damuri_Ajashi

This is not a particularly sympathetic issue compared to the others that were listed. Getting beat up or fired is one thing, getting rejected romantically is another.

They’re not entirely separate, though. As general societal acceptance of transgender people increases, romantic rejection will naturally diminish along with (though probably not to the same extent as) violence and discrimination against them.

@Damuri Ajashi

So my first date should start with “Hey BTW, are you or have you ever been a dude?”

Well, that wouldn’t be very informative phrased in such a way, because AFAIK most transgender women don’t and never did actually identify as men. That’s why they’re, you know, transgender women.

The correct way to ask such a question would be more along the lines of “Do you identify as transgender?” or “Were you female-assigned at birth?”

And yes, if it is so important to you to know such information right at the very start of a dating relationship, then it is up to you to make that clear. Whether you do so by asking individual dates about their gender identity, or saying “no transgender women please” in your online profile, or whatever, the responsibility for clarifying your preferences rests with you.

@Damuri Ajashi

The burden of disclosure is on the transgender person.

Why? Why is it up to the other person to second-guess what you consider important to disclose without your telling them?

That seems just stupid to me. You’re the one who knows what’s important to you; you should be the one bringing up the issues that are important to you. Expecting a total stranger to know what’s important to you is unrealistic.

@Damuri Ajashi

It is significant material information that you have and I do not. It is up to you to share that information with me otherwise you are withholding material facts.

So what? People withhold “material facts” of all sorts from potential dating partners all the time. It’s not their responsibility to magically know in advance which “material facts” you consider disqualifying or dealbreakers.

[Kimstu]

@Slash1972

Does having Type I diabetes or IBS mean that you are biologically different than what you present?

What does “biologically different than what you present” mean, exactly? Somebody with dyed hair or tinted contact lenses or breast implants is also “biologically different from what they present” in that their biologically natural self looks different from their modified appearance.

If a particular kind of modification from one’s original biological characteristics is a dealbreaker for you in a dating partner, it’s up to you to make that clear.

@Slash1972

Had I known that beforehand, I could have found another woman to go with us who was gender-typical.

Sure, but if it was important to you to know that beforehand, you could have asked about that beforehand. It wasn’t her duty to volunteer information about her genital configuration at the start of the night, any more than it was her duty to volunteer information about her ethnic origin or number of children or whatever.

@Slash1972

And if I was on the “Men Seeking Transgender” section of a dating website, it would be clear I was looking to date a transgender person. To me, “Men Seeking Women” means “Men Seeking Gender-Typical Women”. […]

Sorry, but if I see a profile that says “Woman looking for a man” I would assume she meant a gender-typical man, unless she said otherwise.

Nobody else is responsible for what you assume. If you are seeking to date women on a dating website and you want to restrict the definition of “women” to mean “cisgender women”, it’s up to you to make that clear.

[Slash1972]

@Kimstu

What does “biologically different than what you present” mean, exactly? Somebody with dyed hair or tinted contact lenses or breast implants is also “biologically different from what they present” in that their biologically natural self looks different from their modified appearance

You think dyed hair makes someone biologically different? Now you are just reaching. Someone who presents as a woman but is biologically a man is “biologically different than what you present” It’s not that hard to understand.

Nobody else is responsible for what you assume. If you are seeking to date women on a dating website and you want to restrict the definition of “women” to mean “cisgender women”, it’s up to you to make that clear.

Sorry, but I don’t think so. When I say “I’m looking for a woman to date” it’s YOUR fault for assuming I mean a transgender woman.

[AHunter3]

@Slash1972

To me, “Men Seeking Women” means “Men Seeking Gender-Typical Women”.

Again, not sure why this is so controversial.

Out of curiosity…in which searches would you expect intersex people to show up? Someone with, let’s say, androgen insensitivity syndrome who identified all her life as a girl, as a woman now, who has female external genitalia but a vagina that does not lead to a uterus, and who has XY chromosomes. She has testes instead of ovaries.

Do you think…

a) she has no business dating at all

b) she can date but her profile should only come up when someone is searching for “XY women” or “women with a few boy parts”?

c) she should date normally with a profile that comes up for “men seeking women” and at some point in the conversation when she deems it appropriate she can explain some or all of this?

d) other?

[Slash1972]

@AHunter3

Out of curiosity…in which searches would you expect intersex people to show up? Someone with, let’s say, androgen insensitivity syndrome who identified all her life as a girl, as a woman now, who has female external genitalia but a vagina that does not lead to a uterus, and who has XY chromosomes. She has testes instead of ovaries.

Do you think…

a) she has no business dating at all

b) she can date but her profile should only come up when someone is searching for “XY women” or “women with a few boy parts”?

c) she should date normally with a profile that comes up for “men seeking women” and at some point in the conversation when she deems it appropriate she can explain some or all of this?

d) other?

I’ll go with d) other: “Men seeking people with androgen insensitivity syndrome”

[AHunter3]

@Slash1972

I’ll go with d) other: “Men seeking people with androgen insensitivity syndrome”

Well, you get points for consistency. Methinks there’s evidence for some other kind of insensitivity syndrome here, though.

[Kimstu]

@Slash1972

When I say “I’m looking for a woman to date” it’s YOUR fault for assuming I mean a transgender woman.

:rolleyes: And look how well that obstinate obtuseness worked out for you in Thailand. Would you rather have a successful date, or a failed date as long as you can blame somebody else for its failure?

It is not reasonable to expect complete strangers to know your dating preferences in advance. Nor is it reasonable to expect complete strangers to know that you intend to blame them for not knowing your dating preferences in advance.

What is reasonable is to expect complete strangers to respect your dating preferences once you have made it clear what they are.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Una_Persson

Quoted for truth.

Cisgender people can post all they want to how they aren’t bigots, but when you ask that they be honest and forthright and put in their dating profile “no transgender persons,” suddenly that’s a violation of their privacy, and why should they have to be honest about their feelings…and more excuses. There aren’t enough rolleyes.

I got hitched before the internet so I don’t know how this works but is there a little box you have to check and to complete your profile and people are just leaving it blank because they don’t want to appear bigoted but they really are because they aren’t into transgender people? or are you saying that this is something people have to think of while writing a narrative about themselves?

Back in my day, I would go to a bar or nightclub and it would never cross my mind to say “Hey can I buy you a drink, btw I’m not into transwomen so if you’re transgendered, please tell me now”

The burden is being placed on where it rests most lightly. The transgender person is what we call the least cost avoider.

Lets say that 50% of people would care if their date was transgender.

Rather than have 50% of the world verify that the person they are dating is not transgendered (which will be the case 99% of the time), we place the burden on the 1% that is transgendered to disclose 100% of the time. That reduces transaction costs by 98%. It reduces the possibility of error significantly.

[iiandyiiii]

>20 years ago, I would bet money that lots (not all, but lots) of white men would be aghast if they found out a woman they’re dating that they thought was white was actually mixed race.

Now I imagine the amount of men who’d feel this way is much, much lower. Why? Because of changes in social stigma – the stigma of a white person dating a black person is much, much lower than it was in the past. That kind of social stigma is responsible (in my understanding) for most, if not all, of the kind of revulsion that folks feel in terms of romantic relationships and sex.

Social stigma for dating a trans person is still pretty significant, especially for (cis) men (I’ve noticed that the “eww, gross!” responses are much, much more common from men then women with regards to dating a trans person), and thus plenty of cismen still claim feelings of revulsion at the thought of dating a transwoman.

I’ve noticed this personally in myself – 20 years ago, I would have said “eww gross”, both at the thought of dating a transwoman and even at seeing gay or trans (but not lesbian!) kissing in a movie. No longer. I’m not single, but I’m straight, and if I found a transwoman attractive (like, say, Janet Mock) I’d have no compunction in dating them (were I single). And when there’s a gay or trans kissing scene on TV, it’s no longer revolting to me at all.

So I think the vast majority of this dating thing is just about social stigma. No shame in admitting it – pretty much everyone is affected by this kind of thing in society and culture. If you find the idea of dating a trans person gross, okay… but I’d recommend at least considering the likelihood that this is at least partially because of social stigma, and not because there’s something inborn inside of you that screams “oh gross!” at the thought of dating a trans person.

As another piece of evidence, consider all the cultural and societal rage in the past against homosexuality. This was mostly focused on gay men, in my understanding – gay women certainly experienced difficulties, but if I have my facts right, gay men were more likely to be beaten or killed for being gay. The social stigma was stronger against gay men than gay women, I think. And thus straight men were far more revolted by the idea of dating a man than straight women were about gay women. Again, in my understanding of the facts. If I’m right about this, then I think it’s pretty clear those two things (stronger societal stigma against gay men, and stronger revulsion by straight men to gay men) are strongly linked.

[Slash1972]

@Kimstu

:rolleyes: And look how well that obstinate obtuseness worked out for you in Thailand. Would you rather have a successful date, or a failed date as long as you can blame somebody else for its failure?

What is your definition of successful date? I would rather know up front so I don’t waste my time on a date with someone that I wouldn’t have sex with. As said above, why would I ask every woman I meet if they are transgendered so I know not to date them when it’s easier for the small amount of women who are transgender to just say “Just so you know, I’m a transgender woman”? I honestly don’t see what the upside to keeping it a secret is. The downsides of not disclosing have been listed above, but what are the upsides? What possible good can come from not disclosing something like that?

[Ethilrist]

@Slash1972

Sorry, but if I see a profile that says “Woman looking for a man” I would assume she meant a gender-typical man, unless she said otherwise. Not sure why that is so controversial.

Because Match and OKCupid stunningly endorse the gender binary. For the initial sort, the person creating the profile gets to specify Male or Female.

[Slash1972]

@Ethilrist

Because Match and OKCupid stunningly endorse the gender binary. For the initial sort, the person creating the profile gets to specify Male or Female.

If only there was some easy way to overcome these limits and state openly that you are transgendered.

Regardless, if Match and OKCupid had an option to select “Transgendered Man” or “Transgendered Woman”, do you think it would be appropriate for a transgender man or transgender woman to select that option?

[iiandyiiii]

@Slash1972

What is your definition of successful date? I would rather know up front so I don’t waste my time on a date with someone that I wouldn’t have sex with. As said above, why would I ask every woman I meet if they are transgendered so I know not to date them when it’s easier for the small amount of women who are transgender to just say “Just so you know, I’m a transgender woman”? I honestly don’t see what the upside to keeping it a secret is. The downsides of not disclosing have been listed above, but what are the upsides? What possible good can come from not disclosing something like that?

Because being outed could put them at considerable risk, to career and even life. So they may not be willing to tell a stranger, and only after a few dates might they be confident that they’re with someone who wouldn’t out them (or worse) and thus feel relatively safe in telling them.

[iiandyiiii]

The trans woman you dated in Thailand made a wise choice, very likely, because she didn’t know you weren’t the type of person who would beat her for being trans until she got to know you. In a way, telling you was probably a compliment - her way of saying “I think you’re probably a nice and decent person, and thus I’m willing to take the risk of telling you that I’m trans”.

[Slash1972]

@iiandyiiii

Because being outed could put them at considerable risk, to career and even life. So they may not be willing to tell a stranger, and only after a few dates might they be confident that they’re with someone who wouldn’t out them (or worse) and thus feel relatively safe in telling them.

I’ll ask you as well, if a dating site had transgender options during profile creation, do you think it is appropriate for a transgender person to select one of those options?

[iiandyiiii]

@Slash1972

I’ll ask you as well, if a dating site had transgender options during profile creation, do you think it is appropriate for a transgender person to select one of those options?

If they feel safe doing so, yes.

[Slash1972]

@iiandyiiii

If they feel safe doing so, yes.

I see. So, to extrapolate, you feel that if they don’t feel safe, they should select “Woman” instead of “Transgendered Woman”?

[Una_Persson]

@Slash1972

I appreciate you answering, but do not appreciate the hyperbole of “72-point font” when I am simply asking a question.

It’s an SDMB joke from back in the day. I apologize.

Does having Type I diabetes or IBS mean that you are biologically different than what you present?

The former can mean that you are impotent, unable to safely bear children, could be subjected to enormous and devastating health problems (or already are). The latter could mean you could soon be absolutely handicapped and out of work due to pain (it happens). There is a very clear parallel on some levels. How much personal medical information is one required to give out in order to be acceptable to you?

Seems like telling right up front would avoid tears and anger later.

Normally true.