Are Americans losing it with Muslims?

[rat_avatar]

I grew up in a very Mormon place, I thought that capped sleeves were a requirement for something to be called a prom dress. Also at the time all of the colleges that played against BYU had to have two sets of shorts, one of which covered their knees when playing against BYU. Add in Jewish Tzniut , Mennonite dress codes etc…It is only through ignorance that we can even have a debate about the very similar hidjab or even suggest that this type of modest code is purely a muslim trait.

[lance_strongarm]

@rat_avatar

I grew up in a very Mormon place, I thought that capped sleeves were a requirement for something to be called a prom dress. Also at the time all of the colleges that played against BYU had to have two sets of shorts, one of which covered their knees when playing against BYU. Add in Jewish Tzniut , Mennonite dress codes etc…It is only through ignorance that we can even have a debate about the very similar hidjab or even suggest that this type of modest code is purely a muslim trait.

Or even a Muslim trait at all, given that there are Muslims out there who dress less modestly than some Mormons do.

[Gary_Kumquat]

@Chief_Pedant

if you would like an alternate way to be convinced at the oppressive way in which Islam coerces women to dress, feel free to look up photos from most Muslim majority nations…

And there speaks someone who’s clearly never been to Indonesia (world’s largest muslim population), India, Turkey, Egypt or practically any of the more modern countries where it’s practiced.

By all means bang on about Pakistan, Afghanistan, and all the other arse backwards places you’ll find women being oppressed, but for each one I’ll find a similarly arse backwards Christian nation where women are equally treated like shit.

In case I’m not being clear, the common factor here is not the religion practiced. Go into any poor nation you like, and you’ll find that it’s women who get the worst treatment. FGM, for example, can be found in muslim, christian and even jewish communities in Africa.

[lance_strongarm]

Pretty much every single country has laws forcing people to dress a certain way, cover up certain parts, etc. Even the United States. Not many allow total nudity. And many, including the U.S. have different standards for women and men.

[rat_avatar]

@lance_strongarm

Or even a Muslim trait at all, given that there are Muslims out there who dress less modestly than some Mormons do.

Thanks I should have said a “subset of muslims”

[Ramira]

@Chief_Pedant

Not every site lobbying for a position of extreme severity in forcing women to cover up is a “hate site,” and it’s pure bullshitting bluster to pretend the average expression of Islam based on the average interpretation of the Qur’an (not to mention even more severe Hadith additions) permits women to have much freedom of dress at all.

Here’s the first citeI found at random…but if you would like an alternate way to be convinced at the oppressive way in which Islam coerces women to dress, feel free to look up photos from most Muslim majority nations…

Yes we know your knowledge of the average practice in Islam resembles that of your knowledge of the africans and the genetics.

[rat_avatar]

@Ramira

Yes we know your knowledge of the average practice in Islam resembles that of your knowledge of the africans and the genetics.

And note how his arguments conveniently ignore the tenants of his own religion.

1 Peter 3:1-7 ESV

Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, …

[lance_strongarm]

Someone finally did this:

Dutch duo expose prejudices by reading ‘Koran verses’ from Bible (VIDEO)

[Gary_Kumquat]

@rat_avatar

And note how his arguments conveniently ignore the tenants of his own religion.

Oh lordy, please don’t start quoting the bible at christians. Then they have to do all that tortuous mental gymnastics arguing that half of it doesn’t apply any more, and the other half being what someone else said, or parables that don’t really mean what they say. It all gets horribly awkward to watch.

[Human_Action]

I’m 99% sure that Chief Pedant is an atheist…

[lance_strongarm]

@Gary_Kumquat

Oh lordy, please don’t start quoting the bible at christians. Then they have to do all that tortuous mental gymnastics arguing that half of it doesn’t apply any more, and the other half being what someone else said, or parables that don’t really mean what they say. It all gets horribly awkward to watch.

Well, yeah - and then you point out that if Christians can do that, why can’t Muslims do it with the Koran and how do you know they haven’t?

[Ramira]

@Human_Action

I’m 99% sure that Chief Pedant is an atheist…

yes he has said this.

it is not very different from me. I am not very religious, indeed I barely practice if at all. maybe I can say more I am muslim by culture than by any belief. but of course I have grown up with the religion and even did studies in in, so I know some thing about the islam (and less so about franco-catholic culture).

Of course on my second culture and religion exposure I know enough to know it would be stupid of me to make the broad and confident assertions about the christian belief (or even the catholic one).

so it is in this case.

[rat_avatar]

@Human_Action

I’m 99% sure that Chief Pedant is an atheist…

Then why does the post target those of the Muslim faith. Being an atheist does not preclude one from committing an attribution error against an out-group. I know, as an atheist, that I have to make a conscious effort to not differentiate between ingroup and outgroup members, even when I place people in the ingroup purely due to familiarity.

His post was directed to islam and was not directed to societal norms in general and as others have pointed out differing standards of modesty are common in both religious and secular groupings.

[Human_Action]

@Ramira

yes he has said this.

it is not very different from me. I am not very religious, indeed I barely practice if at all. maybe I can say more I am muslim by culture than by any belief. but of course I have grown up with the religion and even did studies in in, so I know some thing about the islam (and less so about franco-catholic culture).

Of course on my second culture and religion exposure I know enough to know it would be stupid of me to make the broad and confident assertions about the christian belief (or even the catholic one).

so it is in this case.

We all make mistakes, this place is a good resource to correct them.

@rat_avatar

Then why does the post target those of the Muslim faith.

You’ll have to ask him, but it’s not because he’s a Christian.

@rat avatar

Being an atheist does not preclude one from committing an attribution error against an out-group. I know, as an atheist, that I have to make a conscious effort to not differentiate between ingroup and outgroup members, even when I place people in the ingroup purely due to familiarity.

Oh, absolutely. As I’ve observed and written about here, when you spend most of your life in American interacting with Christians and absorbing Christian ideas through the media, it’s easy to end up treating Christianity differently than other religions - not because of belief, but because of familiarity. It’s easy to imagine one group as regular, decent folks and another as mindless fanatics if your exposure to the two groups is totally different.

By the by, one shouldn’t assume that a poster critical of Islam is a Christian, lest you fall prey to the same type of prejudices that characterize Islamophobia. I’m fairly positive that Magiver is an atheist too (as am I). Atheism is not an inoculation against bigotry.

@rat avatar

His post was directed to islam and was not directed to societal norms in general and as others have pointed out differing standards of modesty are common in both religious and secular groupings.

He might be wrong, but Christianity isn’t “his own religion”, and that’s worth correcting.

[rat_avatar]

@Human_Action

He might be wrong, but Christianity isn’t “his own religion”, and that’s worth correcting.

And Islam…which is a term that covers 60% of the world population is?

Why is Christianity granted a special exemption?

I am betting that it is only afforded this protection because of the relative familiarity of it to most posters on this board.

The islamophobic rhetoric that is presented by candidates for President and by a large portion of the populations in both the US and European countries is due to this form of special pleading.

Or are you claiming that Mennonite and Romma populations are recipients of this vitriol though the media and government actions at the same level of bigotry?

[tomndebb]

@TheAllSeeingEye

Allah the Exalted says in Surat an-Noor, ayah 31:
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts and not show of their adornment except only that which is apparent, and draw their veils over their (necks and) bosoms and not reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male servants who lack vigor, or small children who have no knowledge of women’s private parts. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn you all to Allah in repentance, O believers, that you may be successful.

And He says in Surat al-Ahzab, ayah 59:
Oh Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their outer garments close around them. That will be better, that they may be known and so not be bothered. And Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful.

From these two ayat of the Noble Qur’an and from the authentic sources of guidance provided for us, we can derive the following principles of proper dress and adornment for Muslim women:

1. The outer garment worn in public must cover all of the body except the face and hands.

Surat an-Noor, ayah 31 (quoted above) contains a clear command that a woman’s natural beauty and her adornment are to be concealed from strangers, except that which might show unintentionally (i.e. parts of the dress or ornaments) or which show as a matter of course because it is not prohibited that they be shown (i.e. the face and the hands).

---

As for lying and baking oaths in the name of God, there’s a whole novella dedicated to when it is appropriate. Browse for yourself!

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur’an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Lying_and_Deception

Adding “necks” to a passage that does not contain it in the original is not a good way to persuade anyone of your good intentions.

Adornments refers to the breasts. No other body part is mentioned. Your claim of full covering except the face is an invention of interpereters and is not found in the Qur’an as you claimed.

[up_the_junction]

He got banned. Not that you could know that

[tomndebb]

@up_the_junction

He got banned. Not that you could know that

Well, I could if the first things I looked up after coming home from work were the Mod threads on Warnings and Bannings. Generally, I just look at e-mail and the various fora. (And when I am distracted by reading the SDMB while fixing dinner, I might fail to notice the status of posters.)

[T.M]

@Plumpudding

Ummm… Don’t judge a book by it’s cover? Never heard of that? Information based on *assumptions *derived from appearance or attire usually, not occasionally, wrong. That’s why prejudice by appearance not regarded as a good way to judge a person, though maybe it’s a good way to judge their attire?

It is unwise to judge a book by its cover, I walked into the Bentley showroom in Berkley Square to look at a new model I was dressed in Jeans and T-shirt, The salesman intimated that I was a little out of my depth. The sales manager came over and said the gentleman already drives a Bentley and arranged a test drive. The sales manager knew that one of his customers was a friend of mine and he respected my opinion. The salesman had one thing right financially I was way out of my league. I drive a Hyundai

[Chief_Pedant]

@Gary_Kumquat

And there speaks someone who’s clearly never been to Indonesia (world’s largest muslim population), India, Turkey, Egypt or practically any of the more modern countries where it’s practiced.

By all means bang on about Pakistan, Afghanistan, and all the other arse backwards places you’ll find women being oppressed, but for each one I’ll find a similarly arse backwards Christian nation where women are equally treated like shit.

In case I’m not being clear, the common factor here is not the religion practiced. Go into any poor nation you like, and you’ll find that it’s women who get the worst treatment. FGM, for example, can be found in muslim, christian and even jewish communities in Africa.

Been to all four. LOL.
Try being a Muslim woman in any of them and wear a skimpy little nothing as you parade around.
Then take a shot at the same outfit in New York where no one even gives a shit if you are ignoring Mohammed.

Look; this bullshit pretense that Islamic majority countries are even remotely parallel to western secular democracies in the oppression of women–and in particular how they can dress in the public square if they are a known Muslim–is…well; bullshit.

Ignorant, even.