Allah the Exalted says in Surat an-Noor, ayah 31:
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts and not show of their adornment except only that which is apparent, and draw their veils over their (necks and) bosoms and not reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male servants who lack vigor, or small children who have no knowledge of women’s private parts. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn you all to Allah in repentance, O believers, that you may be successful.
And He says in Surat al-Ahzab, ayah 59:
Oh Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their outer garments close around them. That will be better, that they may be known and so not be bothered. And Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful.
From these two ayat of the Noble Qur’an and from the authentic sources of guidance provided for us, we can derive the following principles of proper dress and adornment for Muslim women:
The outer garment worn in public must cover all of the body except the face and hands.
Surat an-Noor, ayah 31 (quoted above) contains a clear command that a woman’s natural beauty and her adornment are to be concealed from strangers, except that which might show unintentionally (i.e. parts of the dress or ornaments) or which show as a matter of course because it is not prohibited that they be shown (i.e. the face and the hands).
As for lying and baking oaths in the name of God, there’s a whole novella dedicated to when it is appropriate. Browse for yourself!
Its just like 1984 round here, apply a label to it ‘hate site’ then because its now a ‘hate site’ there is no need to look at it and check if its a ‘hate site’ or if it contains factual content, because as we all know now, its a hate site and noone needs to look at hate sites. Did you hear, Jenny, Jimbob, Jake? It’s a hatesite and we mustn’t visit hate sites, coz the gubbermint said thats how you become terrorists, like Goldstein. And just to make sure you don’t the Thought Police, NSA Branch, are recording every site you visit for future reference, for your own protection, so be a patriot and …
don’t go visiting any ‘hatesites’ y’hear? stick to scatporn and army recruiting videos disguised as Action Films, kids.
In summary, thanks for the warning Sherrif, Ignorance Is Strength, gotta keep strong !
Its the equivalent of a proof avalanche, but what is proof compared to disciplining one’s thoughts? Muuuuuuuch easier
Those passages have been interpreted as you have, but it’s notable that the passages don’t actually say to cover all but the face and hands, or really anything close to that. To arrive at that conclusion requires interpreting the passages with certain cultural biases.
Yes, indeed, you quote a bigoted website but in fact the Surah says not anything clearly
a more traditional translation for you who need it.
the Quranic arabic of the surah does not make any specific statement at all as what the clothing is, the words are not specific other than ‘covering the bosom’ which is clear enough.
so your post that tom called out was a falsehood.
Of course the repeating the smear about lying for God, the new Elder Propotocals type discourse to put on the muslims is clear.
Nothing about the great novel 1984 has anything to do with people pointing out and being critical of a site well know for its religious bigotry, its half truth claims and its distortions. It is rather closer to the spirit of the behavior that George Orwell criticised, your response trying to avoid the criticism by hand waving and language distraction. Ironic.
Last weekend, I saw an excellent show on Muslim feminists. (I’ll have to look it up–those things tend to linger online.) One of the major characters was a mature scholar of the Quran who pointed out that most of the “rules” handed down reflect the societies interpreting them. She said that actually studying the Quran revealed nonspecific guidelines.
This lady dressed in the Western fashion. She ran conferences & seminars with Muslim ladies from all over. Some dressed “Western”, others added a hijab (which can be an elegant accessory) and one lady veiled part of her face. But they were all studying & speaking out. As I said, I’ll try to find more information on this excellent program.
The lesson of this thread? No, “Americans” aren’t losing it with Muslims. Those few who’ve been prejudiced for years haven’t changed. And other countries also have some bigots.
According to the Quran woman are not commanded to cover their faces. Which begs the question why some Muslim insist that a facial vale is commanded by their religion when they leave the home. Going by memory I believe the Quran commands woman to cover their faces during prayer so that their adornments do not distract men who are praying
Ummm… Don’t judge a book by it’s cover? Never heard of that? Information based on *assumptions *derived from appearance or attire usually, not occasionally, wrong. That’s why prejudice by appearance not regarded as a good way to judge a person, though maybe it’s a good way to judge their attire?
This gentleman has apparently been banned, but this being the SDMB I feel compelled to point out that there is no Saudi embassy in Wellington, New Zealand. There is a consulate in Auckland.
Your ‘memory’ is as wrong as your other pubbish claims repeated about muslim dress.
there is no thing in the quran about the face and it is only the injunctio to be modest in praying - this leads some women - as in the Christian traditions (orthodox, catholic) to cover their heads in praying.
at least the readers can trust your consistency in error and invention
It is also the habit of those fervently asserts the black african cooties make their descendants inferior… judging on superficialities and erecting facades of pseudo reason to justify the conclusion
Many Muslim women cover their heads or faces because they think it’s just like how we in the West cover certain parts of our bodies too - for modesty and privacy.
And you use “beg the question” wrong. Don’t do that.
Actually…that’s an interesting point. Ramira, do you by any chance have some numbers on the percentages of self-identifying Muslim women worldwide who regularly wear hijab, niqab, etc? (I imagine they’d be hard to come by and of problematic accuracy, but I’m curious.)
As with Mosaic law and Old Testament traditions, one finds an interesting combination of defenses for areas where the religion and modern society seem to be at odds.
When the traditions are perceived as being inappropriate, the texts are parsed with so fine an interpretation they don’t end up meaning anything. When the text is perceived as inappropriate, the argument is made that the practical traditions are not as severe.
With respect to modesty of dress, it would be highly inaccurate to suggest that Islam, in its general practice, has been relatively overbearing in coercing women to dress modestly and punishing them for not adhering to a very strict standard.
Not every site lobbying for a position of extreme severity in forcing women to cover up is a “hate site,” and it’s pure bullshitting bluster to pretend the average expression of Islam based on the average interpretation of the Qur’an (not to mention even more severe Hadith additions) permits women to have much freedom of dress at all.
Here’s the first citeI found at random…but if you would like an alternate way to be convinced at the oppressive way in which Islam coerces women to dress, feel free to look up photos from most Muslim majority nations…