:rolleyes: No, Debaser, it is not understandable or reasonable for Christians to feel “persecuted” by the principle that “there can be no mention or recognition of religion by government at all.” And most American Christians don’t. Most understand perfectly well that an atheist winning a lawsuit and getting the Nativity scene taken off the courthouse lawn or the Ten Commandments plaque out of the lobby, however distasteful that outcome might be to them, is not an instance of Christians being persecuted. Christians know what persecution is, it’s what the early Roman Emperors did and what the early martyrs suffered, and, no, anything that does not rise to that level is probably not persecution. In fact, apart from the occasional hate-crime, practically no one in America is being persecuted any more. (Well, just maybe you could make a case WRT pot smokers, etc.) Some still suffer discrimination and some suffer exploitation and some suffer marginalization, those are all bad, but those are not persecution. You want instances of “persecution” in American history? There were lynchings in the South well into the 1950s. That is persecution. Driving the Godbothering out of the public square is not.
I’ll post what I’ve already stated in the two other threads where this is being discussed. (Was a third really needed?)
Here is your definition of persecution:
Since I concede that the Christians in America today aren’t literally getting fed to the lions in the Colosseum then I guess I agree that they aren’t being “persecuted” according to your absurd definition of the word.
Total waste of post space-we already have his definition, as you’ve needlessly pointed out.
What is the right definition(according to you), and are Christians being persecuted under that definition?
I am a Christian and I agree. The federal government forcing a local government to take down a nativity scene is not persecution; neither are other things of that kind. Those things are absurd abuses of the Constitution, based on utterly illogical interpretations that contradict the word of the Constitution, the intent of the Founding Fathers, and legal precedent from most of American history. But they’re not persecution.
No, they arne’t persecuted. It’s just that some Christians think they are being persecuted if they aren’t granted unconditional respect & preeminence and have license to trample on everyone else. They think it’s persecution if they aren’t allowed to persecute others.
To the Religious right Christian persecution would seem to include not being able to leverage their majority status into the public sphere to the extent that they would like. As devils advocate I would suggest to some extent it should be expected that the desires/beliefs of the majority should be catered to more than those of the minority, that’s democracy. The question is where to draw that line so that the minority desires and beliefs are also protected.
I remember how growing up we had to go to school on all the major Christian holidays and every day the class had to stand up and in unison say a patriotic oath that denied the existance of God. :rolleyes:
Do I experience occasional eye rolls or snarky comments? Sure. But to call that “persecution” would be worse than gratuitous whining- it would be an insult to people who’ve genuinely suffered for their beliefs.
Seriously, for those that believe, can you imagine getting to heaven and talking to someone who was fed to the lions? Saying to them, ‘oh I faced my share of persecution in my time. Why, the government took away mandatory prayer in school’…
As a semi-practicing Catholic growing up, I agree. The worst things I experienced were gratuitous religion-bashing in Imagine*, and my father telling me how his instructors in New York City told him that they were prejudiced against him because he was ethnically German and they were Jewish.
But that doesn’t mean atheists and Jews are better, it just means they’re the minority. If I had grown up Catholic in a 95% non-Christian country, by statistics I would have had 38 of these anecdotes instead of 2. At that point I would feel sort of persecuted even if I couldn’t point to anything concrete.
*In context, it’s pretty damn gratuitous in that it seems to come out of nowhere. Even as pretty much an atheist I still think the line seems awfully clunky and out of place even if the sentiment is mostly true.
Churches and church related activities have tax exempt status. Donations to churches are exempt from taxes. Churches are permitted to advertise same as any other business, but any additional money they receive from patrons recruited via advertising: untaxed. Federal holidays allow many (most?) school children and employees to stay home and celebrate the Big Two Christian holidays though no other religious group is afforded the same perks. Proselytizers are permitted to ignore no solicitation orders. School children are not permitted to wear headwraps in many schools, but crosses are welcomed everywhere.
Persecuted? Ha. Elevated above all other beliefs and awarded paid religious holidays, freedom to trespass, and kick backs in the form of tax exempt status.
The other interesting comment from that thread was about the persecution of white males. Speaking as a white male who just got a parking ticket, I lamented my persecution last night after driving home in my European imported car, where I watched my 47" LED flatscreen with a glass of Knob Creek, while I reviewed my pay stub that indicates that I net more income in three months than the median African-American woman grosses all year.
Upon further thought, I agree with these wise posters.
The government interpretations of the first amendment are absurd, and are wrong IMO. But I can go with the majority opinion and agree that they might not be most accurate to be called “persecution”.
As I’ve already pointed out in the other threads, I wasn’t the one to introduce that word. The OP of the thread was, and I was pushing back against that. I would imagine he considers the sentiment that ITR champion expressed above the sort of whining about persecution that he was referring to.
But if that’s all everyone is hung up on is the word “persecution”, we can find a better one.
A 47" inch screen? Seriously? Not sure how you can swallow that kind of persecution. Go loot yourself a 60" inch at least. Don’t let the man keep you down.
Let’s imagine a U.S. in the future where Muslims have become the majority. They stop putting up Nativity scenes. Hell, they stop making Christmas a holiday. Instead, we get public displays and official holidays based upon Islam.