Are Democrats soft on National Security

Frankly, I don’t understand why the Crusader was necessary; I thought the Paladin met all the basic requirements of a movable 155 cannon. But I’m not an artillery officer, and so what I understand or don’t understand means very little.

But here’s how the reputation of being seen as “soft” on defense hurts a political party, and how being seen as “hard” helps. The Crusader was cancelled this year, presumably at the behest or at least with the permission of Rumsfeld and Myers, and with at least the knowledge of the White House. When a Republican cancels a military project, given the party’s reputation, I assume at first that it’s based on requirements, although I’m certainly open to hear otherwise.

If a Democratic administration had been behind the cancellation, my first thought was that it was the general antipathy towards military spending, consistent with the reputation that the party has, and would be open to hearing argument otherwise.

That may not be a fair shake, and, as I’ve said, I tend to favor the Republican approach to the military. But I don’t vote a straight Republican ticket always, and my reaction in this area is not, I feel, that much different from the average voter.

Elvis1Lives suggests that the replies will reveal some depth of understanding; I freely admit my ignorance of the details and requirements that went into the award for, and cancellation of, the Crusader program.

  • Rick

I was very careful all along to say that opposition to any individual program was not evidence of being ‘soft’ on Defense. That’s why I wasted a whole bloody afternoon establishing that the Democrats have a pattern of being consistently oppositional, or at least weaker than the Republicans, on a host of ‘core’ military programs.

As for the Crusader, yeah it looks like a system ripe for killing. The problem with the Crusader is basically that restructuring of the armed forces into a rapid deployment force have made the Crusader a tough sell. The two biggest problems with the Crusader are that,

A) it is very difficult to transport by air. The only aircraft that can lift it are the C-5 Galaxy and the new C-17. That means it’s hard to bring them into play on an actual battlefied in rapid fashion.

B) Its primary mission of medium-range precision bombing has been overtaken by smart weapons dropped from aircraft.

Bear in mind that artillery systems are the military component I know least about, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Anyway, a couple of the programs I listed that Democrats wanted to kill I would probably agree needed killing. However, the big difference is that the Democrats always want to kill these programs and then take the money they save and move it out of defense entirely and into social programs (You can find dozens of bills entered by Democrats seeking to transfer funds from the military budget to other things). I might support the Crusader’s cancellation, but whatever hole that cancellation leaves behind needs to be filled. If smart bombs can do it, great. Then order more airplanes and bombs.

Minty is a perfect example of a Democrat who would be ‘soft’ on defense not because he’s a dove, or even because he lacks commitment to defense. But he really apparently doesn’t understand it very well, or if he does, he’s much more willing than I to dismiss defense concerns. For example, these are some of Minty’s assertions from the first page of this thread:

[ul]
[li] Ballistic Missile Defense (a) doesn’t work, (b) won’t provide any reasonable measure of protection damn thing even if it did work exactly as advertised, and © is a giant black hole for billions and billions of dollars that would be more effectively spent elsewhere in the military budget. [/li]
This argument always bothered me. Especially when it comes from liberals who will turn around and claim that the government should just ‘solve’ the energy crisis with R&D. Ballistic Missile Defense doesn’t work. That’s true. That’s why you do research. All evidence points to the fact that it WILL work. There have been a number of spectacular successes in tests recently. But perhaps even more important is that the technology from SDI is filtering down into area missile defense systems like the Arrow missile, which DO work.
[li]Strategic Nuclear weapons are ‘no longer needed’ to protect the U.S. [/li]
This is contrary to the opinion of every armed service, the defense policy of the United States, and common sense. It is critically important for the U.S. to maintain the largest fleet of nuclear weapons in the world, lest it fall prey to nuclear blackmail. It is also the best deterrent against adventurism from countries like North Korea, China, and Russia. As long as the nuclear club has members who have interests opposed to the U.S., the U.S. needs a strategic deterrant. And by the way, nukes are the CHEAPEST way to do that. Take away the Trident subs patrolling the oceans, and the ICBM’s that can hit anywhere in the world, and the U.S.'s only other choice to deter a country like China would be to employ MASSIVE conventional arms in the area.
[li] Allowing the Secretary of the Army and Navy to lease corporate jets when they might need to is ‘too ridiculous to dignify with a response’. [/li]
It’s telling that Minty thinks this is a big joke without even knowing what the issue is. The notion that some military guys should be allowed to fly in executive jets apparently makes his lip curl up. A common affliction among Democrats.
[li] ** Cutting 1% across the board from the military budget is ‘chump change’** [/li]
Okay, you go off and cut 39 billion dollars from the military in one year, without damaging it. But if 1% is chump change, then surely you wouldn’t object to cutting the overall budget of the U.S. by 1%?
[li]The Army School of the Americas has ‘fuck all’ to do with defense. [/li]
The Army School of the Americas trains Latin American soldiers in principles of military leadership, so they can go home and make their own militaries more effective. These militaries through treaty act as front-line defense in case of insurrection or political unrest in Latin America. The ASOTA also requires that students be schooled in human rights, and holds governments who send students responsible for their behaviour, thus giving the U.S. more human rights clout. Another important function of the ASOTA is to train foreign soldiers and civilian managers in the principles of disaster relief - a job that would otherwise fall on the United States military. The ASOTA also organizes joint training between Latin American countries and the U.S., which would allow them to work together more effectively if the need should arise. Finally, the ASOTA trains soldiers and police in other countries how to stop terrorist threats, and how to prevent their countries from being used as transit routes for terrorists and their supplies. I’m guessing Minty didn’t know any of this before he knee jerked and he declared the Army School of the Americas to be useless.
[li]The B-2 is a weapons system designed for a mission that no longer exists, and which is generally incapable of performing the missions it is now asked to perform.[/li]
As I mentioned before, the B-2 is the only aircraft in the U.S. inventory that is capable of striking targets in the Middle East from U.S. soil. All other aircraft need to be staged out of other airbases overseas. There are several huge advantages to this. First, this means rapid response. If a crisis erupted somewhere, the U.S. can respond to it without the logistical problems of moving aircraft and supplies closer to the action. Second, intelligence. Overseas air bases are under heavy scrutiny by intelligence agencies. Moving aircraft to them is a signal of imminent action. The B-2 is the only way the U.S. can strike somewhere with absolutely zero warning.

For a useless aircraft, it sure got a lot of use in Afghanistan. And in this age of terrorism, where threats can arise anywhere in the world, the B-2 is very useful. It also heavily complicates terrorist planning - without the B-2, terrorists could map the location of other bombers like B-52’s, and plan movements and attacks for areas outside their attack radius. Having the B-2 means the U.S. can hit them anywhere, any time, without warning.

[li]His guess is that the Arrow missile is not so good, not even against such fat targets as Saddam’s Scuds.[/li]
I guess Minty doesn’t know that the Arrow missile is already operational, and is a major factor in the possible upcoming war with Iraq. Israel has sped up deployment of the Arrow, and their confidence in the system is not just a big boost to the population of Israel, which doesn’t have to feel quite so helpless under Iraq’s SCUDS, but it also acts as a deterrant to Saddam’s launching of those misiles in the first place.

But here, let me quote from the Associated Press:
*
The developers of the Israeli Arrow missile system say it is ready for use.

An Israeli Arrow missile from the largely U.S.-funded weapons system intercepted and destroyed a missile launched off the Israeli coast on Thursday.
Although the Arrow has hit missiles in previous tests, this was the first time it had intercepted a small, high-speed missile head-on.
The target missile was launched from an F-15 warplane, which makes it more difficult to track and intercept. The Arrow was launched from the ground.
“The Arrow was fired at the target in a stable, precise manner until it hit and destroyed the target,” said Daniel Peretz, head of the Arrow program at Israeli Aircraft Industries.
Peretz said the Arrow is now operational. “If one day, we will need it, the system is functioning,” he told Israel radio.
Prime Minister Ehud Barak said the successful test strengthens “the strategic deterrent capability of the state of Israel.”
*

Of the 8 operational tests of the Arrow, 7 were successful. Not R&D tests, operational tests. That means tests in real-world scenarios. They have shot-down SCUD missiles, and in the test mentioned above, an air-launched, high speed missile significantly more difficult to hit than a SCUD.

Or let’s just ask the question: If you were an Israeli right now, with the fairly high likelihood that in the reasonably near future Saddam was going to launch chemical or biological weapons at you in SCUD missiles, would you like a 7/8 chance of shooting those missiles down?
[/ul]

Well, first of all, there’s no correlation at all in the difficulty of missile defense and energy/conservation research. The mere fact that you conflate the two indicates either that you are creating strawmen or you have no clue how difficult an effective missile defense system will be.

Now, I’m all for research into missile defense. But I wouldn’t waste too much money in it. Because it will never be effective.

The difficulty of an effective missile defense isn’t fundamentally a scientific research problem (although those problems are hard enough). It’s a race-against-other-smart-people problem.

No matter what system we create, smart guys on the other side can defeat it with orders of magnitude less time and effort than we put into creating the system. That’s why it will never work, because it’s stupid to think that the enemy will just stop development at the point when our billion dollar system can still stop his. He’ll add mirrors, or decoys, or wings.

This is why anyone who tells you that Missile defense will work is either handing you a bill of goods, or defining ‘work’ to mean passed acceptance tests. And why Mintys item b) above is the key point you keep ignoring.

On the other hand, there’s no smart guys working to neutralize new energy technologies.

“Missile Defense” is merely a pretext for the larger goal of militarizing space. If you thought the world was a dangerous place in the past, these new efforts to load space with weapons will increase the threat of total annhilation many times over.

Incredible.

The SOA (it has been renamed after the congress voted to shut it down, but it is the same shame under a new name) is the world’s largest terrorist training camp. The alumni have been responsible for vast numbers of hideous atrocities, including the murder of Archbishop Romero, the rape and murder of four American churchwomen in El Salvador in the early '80’s, the murder of four leading Jesuit intellectuals in El Salvador in 1989, and on and on.

It is laughable to assert that the U.S. is training these mercenaries in human rights, or that the SOA does anything but cast shame and disgrace on the U.S. A heroic grass roots movement participated in civil disobedience and lobbying of their congresspeople in order to shut the place down, to end the shame and try to wash some of the blood off of our hands, but the bastards who call themselves our leaders simply re-opened it under a new name.

The purpose of the SOA is to maintain military control of states that do the bidding of Washington. You sort of say this in a euphemestic way when you say that SOA graduates, “act as front-line defense in case of insurrection or political unrest .” This is true. The graduates of the SOA act to defend Washington’s corrupt and brutal police states, by harrassing and killing dissidents who speak out against injustice. SOA graduates helped to maintain the Death Squad Democracies in El Salvador and Guatemala, as these states murdered over 200,000 in the 1980’s, they helped to maintain the Somoza dictatorship before it was overthrown, and then they became a terrorist army fighting against the democratic government that took its place. The list could go on all day.

The SOA has never done anything good, and it should be shut down NOW and FOREVER.

School of the Americas Watch

Like hell. I have spent 2/3 of my life living in close proximity with the military. Many of my friends from high school joined up; some are still there. I’d wager I have more practical experience with the military than 98% of the American public.

As for your grocery list, I haven’t the time or the inclination to debate your Republican-inspired priorities, much less your gross distortions of my statements. I’ll simply point out that, once again, you have defined “soft on defense” as being anything less than complete support for the Republican military agenda. Not even ONCE have you bothered to ask me what my military priorities would be, how I would spend the dough, or what I think the mission of the military should be. You merely complain that I don’t support your shit, without the slightest bit of interest in what I do support for three damn pages.

Republicans good. Democrats bad. No need to inquire further.

[sub]Good god, you still apparently believe that a single vote against leasing corporate jets shows Democrats are soft on defense. Why do I bother?[/sub]

Ah, no. I actually quoted what you said, verbatim.

But okay, what would your military priorities be?

Minty:

C’mon. He’s said a few times now that he’s talking about the aggregate effect of all the votes, and doesn’t hold any single vote out as being proof of anything. Your comment above is not a fair analysis of his position.

  • Rick

Then why is he still whining about it?

Sam, I’ll deal with you later.

Never said it. Never, ever, ever. Don’t fucking attribute it to me.

Horseshit. The notion that you would think this paltry little item demonstrates anything at all, in the complete absence of ANY context for the vote you cite, makes my lip curl.

As I already mentioned, that is unadulterated horseshit. Your ignorance is truly astonishing in this regard, and your refusal to check your facts after I already pointed out you were wrong is just astounding.

The B-52 has “a range limited only by crew endurance.” In fact, its unrefueled range is 2800 miles greater than that of the B-2 (8800 miles vs. a paltry 6000 miles). Give it up already, will you?

The B-52 was specifically designed to blast the shit out of the Soviet Union from bases in the continental United States, and it can unquestionably bomb any target in the Middle East from the U.S. Even better, it doesn’t have to. As for your ridiculous assumption that al Qaeda has or had ense radar capable of detecting anything at all, much less B-52s, all I can do is laugh at your paranoia. B-52s dropped far wore ordnanace on Afghanistan than the piddly little B-2s, and they did it with complete impunity. But hey, if you want to fly nukes over Moscow, the B-2 is definitely your aircraft. :rolleyes:

I am perfectly aware that it has been deployed. I am also perfectly aware that it has not been demonstrated to be effective in anything other than controlled test conditions, and everything I know about Star Wars techonology leads me to believe that it will end up being essentially inefective. On the other hand, its deployment certainly serves Israeli propaganda purposes. What the hell do you expect them to do, cry out about how defenseless they are against Iraq’s Scuds? Of course they’re gonna play it up, Sam, just like Saddam keeps telling everyone he can kick America’s ass.

By the way, you might want to take the time to learn math at some point. 1% of the current military budget is $3.9 billion, not $39 billion. No wonder you guys can’t be bothered to submit a balanced budget.

FWIW, there were several B-52 missions early in the Gulf War flown from bases in Guam and Louisiana. They were stopped only because the refueling tankers were more needed elsewhere.

Looks like Sam is still pouting over the obstinacy of the unbelievers regarding Saint Ronald’s holy missile shield. Can’t be the result of fact-based reasoning and planning, has to be simple bad faith. Notice his dodging of the question of who cancelled the Crusader (GWB and Rumsfeld, btw - the question was a rhetorical trap, Bricker), and why he considers it to have been a good choice, when, if Clinton had done it, it would have been on that list he C&P’d from somewhere unattributed.

minty, when engaging in any US political or economic issue with him, it helps to recognize that to him it’s a matter of religious faith, not reason, and is not susceptible to debate. Sorta like talking gun control to an NRA member, ya know.

Oh, I get it. Faith means pi = 3.0, faith means that 6,000 miles > 8,800 miles, and 1% of $390 billion = $39 billion. It all makes sense now.

[temporary hijack]
minty – check your e-mail. Thanks.
[/temporary hijack]

My pleasure, Dewey.

Minty Said:

This is exactly what you said:

Forgive me if I didn’t get from that your deep-seated belief that nuclear deterrance is vitally important. If your position is that some nuclear deterrance is needed, but that we don’t need the Trident subs to do it, then perhaps you could learn to communicate with a little more clarity, because your “Dude, get rid of the nukes” snarkiness fails to convey the nuance of your position.

Continuing…

Hey look - YOU are the one who instantly dismissed this without knowing the details. Not me. If you want me to believe that you are strong on defense, you might start by not dismissing military requests out of hand.

For those with short memory, this was your response to that military request:

See, if had said that to someone who WASN’T soft on defense, the worst possible answer I’d get would be a skeptical, “What do they need them for?”. Only a person who has disdain for the military would automatically think that such a request was ‘too ridiculous to dignify with a response’. And this is a typical reaction from many Democrats. Call it the ‘Alan Alda’ syndrome.

As does any aircraft capable of mid-air refueling. Doesn’t mean you can launch a strike across the ocean with them. There still have to be tankers available. So now your range is just limited by the radius of no tanker coverage. But actually, I’ll concede this one. Because in today’s world with the U.S. able to maintain air supremacy wherever it wants, there are no effective gaps in tanker coverage.

To be honest, I’m not sure why the military feels that the B-52 would not be suitable for launching from the U.S., but they do. I’ve seen several air force spokemen say that in the last year. But who knows? In this case they may be just propping up the B-2 program to keep it from looking like a boondoggle. I believe I could be convinced that the B-2 is unnecessary. Primarily because the B-52 recently got another 20 or 30 year extension to its airframe life. B-52’s will still be flying in 2030, and maybe much longer. One of the most successful airframes in history.

Now I get to ask you the same question - Where in hell did I say THAT? I don’t recall mentioning radar. I didn’t say that stealth technology was critical. Please show me a cite.

Yep, the B-52 is a hell of a work horse. No doubt about it. And B-2’s are freaking expensive. So I’m ready to be convinced.

But I should add that low observables will become pretty important again if one day we had to fly over Peking. Not that I think that is likely, but the military does have to plan for all possible enemies. Anyway, I agree that it was designed for a mission that is obsolete. The question is whether not it has a new mission that carries enough value to warrant keeping it around. I believe I could be convinced in either direction.

I don’t know why you feel justified in saying that. From what I’ve read, the tests were quite reasonable means of determining the effectiveness of the Arrow. They actually went out of their way to set up tests that would be more difficult than what a SCUD would be. It was successful 7 out of 8 times, and in the judgement of the professionals who installed it and consulted on its purchase, it was of acceptable quality to put into operational service. For you to make the knee-jerk assumption that it won’t work shows your bias.

Pure supposition. I could also claim that the Israeli government is downplaying its role in order to keep the population more alert and even to help the political goal of maintaining a warlike stance. And I’d be just guessing too. We have no evidence that this is the case. In such situations, I am willing to take the word of the contractors and soldiers that designed, built, and tested the system, and of the evidence available in the publically available test result reports. My default assumption is not that I’m reading a vast web of lies foist upon me by a feckless and corrupt Military-Industrial Complex. I tend to save that kind of thinking for the FDA and HEW. That’s what makes me ‘soft on social programs’. (-:

The Left used to do a lot of carping about how wasteful and ineffective the U.S. military was. There were weekly exposes’ on shows like ‘60 Minutes’ on how one program after another was a failure or mired in problems. Most of those claims were wildly overblown, and most of that criticism has faded away after the U.S. was forced to prove all of these ‘failed’ systems - most of which performed spectacularly.

**

What’s your reasoning for either of those statements?

Sorry if someone already commented on this - I read to the end of the next page and the subject seems to have dropped - and I don’t have time to read till the end now.

Actually, new aquisitions are the cheapest part of the program. It’s the R&D that really cost us. So if we stop now, we end up blowing a lot of money - we spent a shitload making the thing, but then only made a handful of them. We ended up wasting all the potential but still costing us a ton of money.

Something I saved in my file of memorable posts from a while back (posted by someone else on another forum):

Also, the Trident is a sumbarine launched missile, not a submarine.

If anyone wants me to clarify anything about the weapons system we’re discussing, go ahead. I’m not really interested in getting in the debate, but I’d be happy to share my knowledge. I’ve been a military geek for as long as I can remember.

In any case, B2s are still extremely useful against mid-tech adversaries like Iraq. B52s would be creamed over baghdad - it’s not even worth considering. And the flight support required for B52 strikes is ridiculous compared to that of the B2.

With a B52 flight, you need jamming aircraft, SEAD aircraft, fighter aircraft, other logistical considerations. The B2 needs none of these.

In 1991, we had F117s as the workhorse in Iraq - and now we’ll have the B2. The B2 can carry, if I recall, roughly 31 times the ordinance, and can target up to 16 seperate targets with smart munitions on any given pass. A flight of a half-dozen B2s can do the work that would’ve taken dozens or hundreds of F117 sorties.

B52s are great work horses for bombing the hell out of undefended areas - but you’ll never see them over baghdad.

It’s both. The Trident is a missile, but the Ohio-class subs that carry it are also called “Trident Submarines”. The official name, I believe, is "Ohio-class/Trident ballistic missile submarine ".

(Bolding mine)

He didn’t say we didn’t need missile subs, he said we don’t need more of them.

You really ought to read what he says before you go off half cocked a murder a bunch of innocent strawmen.