Is there a master list of Eagle Scouts to check my name against should I choose to claim to be one?
Sorry, I intended the instrument and not the song. Ferguson and Ellis were trumpet players (well Ellis was also a drummer).
It was at the Notre Dame Jazz Fest in the mid to late 70’s and MF ran a clinic for trumpet players. I got called on to play something (just a few lines of sheet music). He played along but finished up about 20 octaves above me… ok, that may be a slight exaggeration, but that is what it seemed like at the time. I thought I had a good range until then.
End of hijack… now back to if Eagle Scouts are easily identifiable or not.
They say there is no such thing as an ex-Marine. A Marine is a Marine for life. This overstates the case, but I think it is mostly true.
I am ex-Navy and I don’t think this holds true for us or the other services. Maybe all ex-military look back with a little bit of an almost pride like emotion for their time served, but nothing like Marines I would say.
As to Eagle Scouts, I have not observed what the Op observed, but it is possible. In my experience one of the most burnt out stoners I knew was an Eagle Scout but that is 1 point of data and not statistics.
I have only seen this with navy guys mostly who served in WWII
So your saying that loyalty is not demanded by other groups in this world ?
An interesting experiment would be to take a bunch of 21 year olds - 1/3 Eagle Scouts, 1/3 farm or ranch kids, and 1/3 inner city drug dealers and give them a task to accomplish. I’ll bet the farm/ranch kids have done more complicated projects by age 14 than the average Eagle Scout, and they did it with scrap metal and parts they found in an old barn.
The drug dealers have tremendous organizational and managerial skills and can identify their loyalists and their go-getters and put them in the right places to do the best job.
Building a foot bridge across a stream and a flower garden for an Eagle Scout project when you’re 18 isn’t too difficult, especially when dad is an engineer.
Lamar, I think that is the point. They try to instill the can do attitude that you would find in a farm boy. It might take a few years to for them to reap the benefits but as adults they tend to approach it with more of a can do attitude.
I grew up more like the farm boys but without the discipline. A lot of kids coming from more sheltered environments may not have otherwise been exposed to a lot of the lessons earned there. I certainly regret not having the discipline and sense of purpose at a young age.
One of my big disappointments in life has been the sheer lack of loyalty I have seen in all walks and positions of life. I see some loyalty in some types or relationships but not much.
Dogs are loyal. Many spouses pledge to be loyal to each other. In what other context does the concept of* loyalty* even come up? Perhaps “loyal employee.”
One very common example might be suppose my boss took me under his wing and showed me things I would have never learned in the normal course of the job. For some reason that same employee sees his boss become vulnerable. Instead of helping him to get through a rough period in all most all cases I will see the younger one try and take his job. To be fair most of the bosses were just as bad and would throw a loyal employee under the bus in a heartbeat if it meant saving his own ass. 50 years ago this was the exception and not the rule.
I think the mistake is thinking that Eagle Scout is somehow more loyal than someone else who worked hard in their chosen path. Think about how many kids joined the Cub Scouts compared to how many became Eagle Scouts… that is a pretty small and loyal group.
Now, think about how many kids played youth recreational soccer and how many of those became the captain of the HS soccer team, or even an All American, and maybe even got a scholarship to play in college… a pretty small and loyal group who worked hard, sacrificed a lot and didn’t give up.
How about the kids who were forced by their parents to take piano lessons… and how few of them went on to be accomplished players? They didn’t do that without a lot of dedication and loyalty.
I think what you are saying is that there are a small percentage of people who put in the work to make Eagle Scout… and they should be recognized. However there are also a very small percentage of people who work hard on their chosen path and they shouldn’t be looked at any less for their success than the Eagle Scout.
Bottom line is that a small percentage raise to the top and if that is what you are looking for, you will find a large percentage who don’t meet that level… but there are also many others who do but were never involved in scouting.
Until recently I hadn’t given the Eagle Scouts a lot of thought. In the past couple of years I have interacted with a few and noticed some characteristics that seemed similar and also similar to some I have known in my past. My first thought was all show and no go looking for brownie points, but over time they seemed to prove out the good character was really there.
I was trying to be somewhat supportive for your opinion until this. Have you ever been part of a team? Have you heard of team spirit or sportsmanship? How about just plain old friendship and decency? I’ve seen kids sacrifice a potentially winning play to help an injured player. Many times the player was even on the other team.
That is just one example… watch the news and see all of the stories of someone taking the extra effort to help someone out. Sports (there was just a story of a cross country runner who was disqualified because he stopped to help another runner in distress), or cheerleaders inviting a special needs kid onto the squad, or a second grader organizing a book drive for the needy, or people of all walks of life taking time to feed the homeless, or… do I really need to go on? How many of them do you think were Eagle Scouts?
I do see plenty of good examples and I admire it when I do see it. I don’t see any of the examples above as good examples of loyalty. I see them as good examples of character. That is where I have some conflict in life. I have seen some of what I thought were really upstanding people turn when they thought their own ass might be on the line or even if they thought it might benefit them in some way.
I’m sorry that you have only been exposed to these people. I can assure you that loyalty isn’t something only ingrained in Military and Scouts.
I can give you some personal examples just within my family and friends but don’t really feel like I have to prove that only scouts have this ability.
In fact, the only time my son was bullied was when he was a cub scout. I don’t however think that all scouts are bullies. Also, one of the biggest jerks I know brags constantly about how he was an Eagle Scout (his biggest achievement was 40 years ago). Again I don’t think all Eagle Scouts are jerks.
It goes both ways.
I’ve still got a leeetle resentment towards this whole topic. At around age 6, when I found out I’d never be able to be an Eagle Scout, I quit Girl Scouts. Besides, it was all just selling stupid cookies - no camping or knives or anything actually interesting. But I agree there’s a self-selection that goes towards becoming an Eagle Scout; it’s less the institution shaping the kids and more that the kids with a certain mindset succeed within the institution.
That was made pretty clear by your OP, which I happen to agree with but neglected to mention. I offered my friend and myself only as data points for your hypothesis. (By the way, I think 30% is much too low.)
Since then I’ve read the other replies, and realize I was focused too narrowly on the “Merit Badge” aspect. Other aspects of 1960’s Boy Scouting that didn’t persist into my adulthood were the paramilitary trappings, and the “God and Country” stuff.
But for most of my adult life I’ve felt that Boy Scouting was THE source of my sense of morality: (Cliché Alert) “Be Prepared”, Do it right, Do unto others etc, Job well-done is its own reward, and so on. “Be Prepared” of course being the only specifically BSA utterance. Last but not least, almost all of the “outdoorsman” skills and activities have been utilized and enjoyed throughout my life, although adjustments have been made to accomodate my being 65 and creaky.
Sorry, but I just can’t resist…
You know who else rewarded those who were loyal without question…
I agree with this. Those examples you list also pop on a resume.
I wasn’t being totally open about an issue when I started this thread. I think Dseid may have answered it several threads up when he said certain personality types would tend to fall into the Eagle Scout program. I was trying to be careful not to hurt anyone’s feelings because it is a sensitive topic.
Having been a foreman or supervisor for over 40 years has put me in a position where I have had a lot of different types of people work under me. On the few occasions when I felt an employee became overly attached to me it was always former Eagle Scouts. They were always high achievers and loyal to me to a fault but extremely sensitive to a point where I couldn't deal with them objectively. I had known a couple of others that I was not associated with beyond being an acquaintance who exhibited similar behavior.
Obviously the program has nothing to do with them being like this but young men who are like this may find the program attractive for some reason. The shame is that I really liked these guys and admired them for a lot of things but they were just too hard on themselves.