Yes, I’ve noticed this too. More with men than women, but I’ve seen both do it. I think that kind of broad-brush characterization is often linked to feelings of helpless anger and grief. It also is a way to avoid taking responsibility for your own part in a relationship failure – ‘there’s nothing I could have done, they’re all like that and can’t change’.
So, you want to be loved for you, but you also expect a woman you are in a relationship with to uncomplainingly pick up responsibility for all the housework and care for you in your old age.
And the idea that this woman might get annoyed if she feels she is doing too much more of the housework strikes you as “hell in earth”.
I suppose you might find a traditional women out there who is happy to take over all the domestic responsibilities. She will expect you to support her, and not complain about her spending habits, though. She will also expect you to give her children, and love and support them. That’s kind of the traditional, stereotypical relationship. And you seem to be into stereotypes.
Here on the Dope, I see lots more male posters do it, but I think that’s just because of the demographics. I really don’t know if universally there are more males than females saying that. Then the other question would be what is not being expressed but still thought.
I agree that it’s a way of minimalizing one’s own shortcomings. “What can you, they are all (crazy, emotional, stupid, etc., etc.)?”
Also, I really think that people just tend to overgeneralize in life. One of my friends is just getting back into dating 18 months after her husband passed away. She’s always asking me what men are like, and I’m always tell, which man? If you really believe that all women are the same, then if you have a horrible experience, then this tendency to generalize makes it easy to apply that to the universe.
This is one of my all time favorite xkcd comics.
…I can’t tell whether that’s sarcasm.
Well, there’s the money quote. Guess what? ALL adult relationships are transactional, in the broad sense of the word. There are no exceptions. Everyone wants to feel some sense of equivalency in the self-perceived amount they give versus the the self-perceived amount they receive. If this is not the case, there will consequences. Also, everyone wants to be “loved for me.” That isn’t gendered either. Adult relationships are always about reciprocity, not unconditional love. That’s mostly reserved for parent-child relationships.
The unconditional love ship has sailed.
He’s also said
And that he wants sex.
So it’s not like he’s looking to unconditionally love a woman, either. He wants to get stuff out of a relationship. Which is completely normal. And yes, of course a woman is looking to get stuff out of a relationship, too.
Sure.
And it can be a fine intellectual discussion to pontificate on what those average differences are and how much in a result of socialization, to gender expectations and reactions to them, so on.
But if are ever in another LTR it will not be with some archetypal average woman statistic; it will be with an individual. Whatever actually is average the spread within the groups swamp it. The average is not so useful in dealing with the individual.
Transactionality? Both sides want to be loved for who they are. To be understood for what they mean to say. To be appreciated. Validated. Cared about. To have their happiness matter to their partner. Man woman gay straight fluid traditional or open … if we want a LTR we want that transaction.
A man is responsible for trying to make a woman happy and taking her happiness seriously. If the woman is unhappy, the man likely is or will be as well. Ultimately, you can influence but not control how people feel. (Despite the wording, this applies to all couples of any sex or gender.)
Women initiate more divorces than men. Percentages vary but college-educated women are even more likely than the average (initiating up to 90%?), already high. Women in some places are becoming more educated than men. Most women spend more time on household duties and childcare even if both work, by an hour or two each day.
Stereotypical examples do not apply to many individuals. Both sexes may be vulnerable to other opportunities especially if they feel undervalued, underappreciated, underromanced or have unmet expectations, which may or may not be reasonable. Relationships are transactional, as DSeid said. People want to be loved for who they are and be understood. Happiness probably requires at least three things - someone to love, something to do, and something to look forwards towards.
That’s a pretty ungenerous (hell, shitty) reading of what he wrote IMO.
Would you care to offer a more generous reading?
I may be misunderstanding all his ramblings about not wanting to be a junior woman. I really have no idea what he’s trying to get at there. But i think he’s saying that it’s only women who make the household, and he may chip in here and there where he’s asked to, but any real woman would be upset if he actually took responsibility for any of that.
But … I’m guessing, because “I’m not going to be a junior woman” doesn’t mean anything to me.
My takeaway was that he was a bit distressed that back and forth over domestic stuff could kill a relationship. I think this is unrealistic: of course day to day stuff can kill a relationship, but I can see his point that these things should be able to be worked out. I didn’t read anywhere in what he wrote that he expected the woman to just do everything.
And going from “someone to be there with me as I get older” - I read that as “I want to be with someone and we’ll grow old together”, which is romantic. You got “care for you in your old age”, e.g. “I want nursemaid”, which is pretty uncharitable. You may be right in your interpretations, but I don’t see it.
EDIT: I missed" I’m not going to be a junior woman." Yeah, that definitely gives me pause. I meant the later post of his that you responded to. But from that comment you may be right. 
I do not want a stay at home wife. I cannot afford another stay at home wife. I am already paying for another stay at home wife.
Women are allowed to be women. They can have whatever standards they want from their home and environment. My experience is that in AVERAGE relationships women report decreasing happiness over time. This is borne out by data.
I emphasize AVERAGE. I will not attempt an AVERAGE relationship. It has to be based on particular concern for me. I emphasize a women’s love for me, because I think there are fewer women that can love me as compared to ones I can love. So that will prove to be the rarer element.
I am not going to base my relationship on chore exchange. Yes I will help with the household in whatever capacity the relationship exists. But chores aren’t going to keep the relationship together.
What we are saying is that in our experience, if women grow less happy over the course of a relationship its because they start to feel exploited, in ways that go far beyond “chores”. This isn’t to say all women grow less happy, just that when they do, its more often about feeling like they are overworked relative to their partner, and that his increasing happiness is possible as the direct consequence of them shouldering the bulk of the burden.
We aren’t saying that is what happened with your wife. How would we know? But you are asking “how do I keep average woman from becoming discontented over time?” And we are like “well, dude, no woman is really average, but in our experience, often as not, its about feeling like she’s giving tons and getting little in daily life, so maybe consider that” and you’re all “chores? Don’t speak to me of chores. Chores have no relevance to this profound question of how bitches be crazy, ammirite?”
Unfortunately it is the mundane that is where the profound happens.
“Don’t sweat the small stuff” is in reality horrible advice. Feeling valued, loved, respected, desired, validated, understood … these manifest in all the small stuff. There’s no single best model for who does what. We each have different skills and different egos. What is appreciated in one relationship is bulldozing and taking over in another. Or in the same relationship on a different day. Some enjoy doing what others resent doing. Or sometimes one and other times the other.
Getting the should be small stuff right only happens as a result of all those big things being there and those things being there are threatened when we get the should be small stuff wrong.
Chores matter.
What matters is typically the ability of a woman to love, respect, and desire her man.
I could earn multi millions and pay for every servant. A woman who doesn’t love, respect, and desire isn’t going to want to be with me in the long term. Now money can attract many women in the short term. So can looks. Chores, flowers, politeness, if she doesn’t respect the man, she’ll just say “Thank you” or not even that and it’s not going to make her desire him more. Maybe even less, maybe she doesn’t respect him and thinks him a chump.
I saw this all through my divorce. The crap I got blamed for. I mentioned the laundry/dishwasher deal, which I consistently refuted. I’m sure the lack of handiness came into it once she switched sides. Keep in mind that nothing here in the marriage was articulated about handiness. It was one of the things I probably was supposed to “just know.” Other things disrespected by my ex were the fact that I read too many books and my church. Loaning a thousand dollars to my mom so she could buy a car.
I no longer believe I can hold a marriage together simply by being a good person. Had too many things thrown at me to think otherwise.
This is one of the reasons that I mistrust the sorts of epiphany type blow ups over spaghetti sauce. Because I have no idea of the pretext. If displeasure was ever articulated or communicated. If the man’s behavior was encouraged before it was loathed. Again I am reminded of the Odd Couple. Two divorced men, one too sloppy, the other too neat. I am guessing Felix didn’t have a chore deficit.
If we want these sorts of “last straw” outcomes to be moral, then the reasons have to be moral. Infidelity and abuse are excellent reasons. Leaving the toilet seat up is not a moral reason to break up a marriage. Furthermore, a man may also be left because he leaves the toilet seat down all the time.
I have seen some women love men. I would like that in a relationship.
This is something that even the “manosphere” guys don’t really get. I read some of their stuff, I don’t think much of it beyond a few good points because they never consult with women and don’t really understand women. But a lot of men and women really, really want to believe that men can keep their relationships if they just get their shit together one way or another. I don’t.
Connection and desire matter. Read the romance novels.
Men can keep their relationships if they pick a compatible partner, and are willing to work on the communication/emotional stuff – pretty much all the time. You didn’t. From your posts, I gather that this is beyond your capabilities, at this point. You are far too bitter and full of generalized misogynistic judgements. If I were you, I’d get therapy to work on those things. Among others.
Wow.
Yeah your best bet is to live alone.
This is very very basic stuff. What matters is how we work together to demonstrate, maintain, and build our love, respect, and desire to and for each other, working to understand which details achieve that for each other as individuals.
I don’t claim to have always succeeded in doing that. It is often a huge challenge. One or the other feeling hurt can show as anger, hurting the other, making neither feel loved, respected, desired. Decades into it we are still a work in progress. As two imperfect individuals we misread each other and get each other’s small stuff wrong sometimes. The two way street of getting it right is full of cars that have dents from distracting driving.
But you man? Your best choice is to not drive.
Wow.
Any of these “deals” can be thrown out by either partner at any time. This is what you do not get.
Ask the woman married 25 years whose husband leaves her for the hot young secretary whether chores matter.
Ask the woman who supported her husband through medical school who dumps her as soon as he’s completed residency whether chores matter.
I doubt either of these women are going to be eager to reengage in this sort of relationship any time soon if ever. Maybe you think they should have grilled their partners more. And their partners simply could have lied more or changed their minds, since that’s on the table.
These deals are only as good as the morality of both partners. That morality may be subject to change.
I’ve been married to the same woman for over 37 years and living together a few years before that. Thick and thin the whole time, from before we were married. Hard decisions that had to be made including ones that we were in strong disagreement over. Fights. Four kids parented to adulthood together and parented together as adults as well (adult or not they remain our children and we are there for them when needed). Serious illnesses that have incapacitated us for periods of time. (The illnesses occurred in one of our bodies only, but the stress of illness incapacitation happens to us as a couple.)
I am very aware that either of us could have, or still could, throw out the “deal” at any time. Each of us have had times we thought about it. Believe me I “get” that. If we had at any of those times pulled the trigger and divorced it would not have been due to a lack of morality by either of us. No infidelity. No abuse. No violations of trust. No lack of love between us. No big differences in basic core values. No disrespect of each other.
A LTR is not a romance novel. It is not a sitcom. Maybe there are couples for whom it is effortless? Who just complete each other? Some at least seem that way when all I can see is their public face. Maybe it is that way behind closed doors too? Could be. Some probably are.
But the lasting LTRs I’ve seen the insides of have required ongoing work at it and mutual acceptance of a few warts. Coevolving. Negotiation and renegotiation. Trying again to understand what the other actually means to say, to misunderstand a bit less. Whether as a partner or a parent - “love is not enough” - no where close, even adding in respect and desire.
OP. I will say this again. You will not and cannot have a 'til-death-do-us-part relationship unless you get therapy from a specialist. A life coach cannot do this. A few sessions with a therapist won’t cut it. Defensiveness won’t cut it. Your ex-wife, or rather, your ex-wife as you see her, is lurking beneath every thought and perception. It’ll take time and expert guidance to free yourself.
Frankly, your “junior woman” comments yesterday were so offensive, I was too angry to respond, and I notice your views have apparently driven off other posters. You can cling to your defensiveness and ascribe our reactions to whatever rationalization makes you feel justified, or you can steel yourself to face this as the wake-up call that it is.
Whether you attempt any more relationships or elect to remain alone, without help, your ongoing resentment will have you continuing to confront, accuse, and convict your ex-wife in your own mind, and it will be just as frustrating. Your ex-wife has moved on, your ex-girlfriend has moved on, and here you are, still arguing alone in an empty courtroom. That’s no way to live.