Are muslim fundamentalism & conservative politics two sides of the same revolution

Great Debates
1

FTR, I am not comparing american conservatives to muslim fundamentalists in any moral sense of the word, just talking about their underlying motives and wondering if they are in a way two sides of the same revolt. First and foremost american conservatives do not support military action against civilians, which alone is a gigantic gap between the two groups.

But I was reading a couple of books this weekend including ‘whats the matter with kansas’ and ‘don’t think of an elephant’ both of which are about conservative philosophy and mentality.

Conservatism in america today seems to be a backlash against a changing world. Conservatism is based in part on a feeling of martyrdom and oppression, filled with conspiracy theories about an all powerful liberal elite controlling everything and trying to destroy the tried and true ways of life.

Conservatives, according to the books, feel their way of life is under threat by a vast liberal conspiracy. This liberal conspiracy controls the courts, the educational system and the media and is shaping the new world into something foreign and unacceptable. This conspiracy is trying to undermine all the unique values of america like marriage, religion, individuality, freedom, etc. by promoting extreme levels of unrealistic PC that only outsiders believe in. This conspiracy is trying to bring a proud group of people (americans) under the thumb of outsiders (the UN, the international community, etc)

Muslim fundamentalism however seems to be the same thing, just with some minor differences (replace ‘liberal’ with ‘americans & Israel’, etc). Here are some similiarities.

Both feel they are being persecuted
Both feel their ways of lives are under threat by outsiders
Both feel they are living under a gigantic conspiracy of ‘outsiders’ trying to change their ways of lives
Both groups turn to radicalism and religion to cope

Thats not to say that conservatives and muslim terrorists are the same thing. There are muslim terrorists like Bin Ladin, conservative terrorists like Eric Rudolph and liberal terrorists like ELF. So terrorism isn’t the tying thread, as all groups support that in their extremes.

Are both revolutions which are based on a feeling of martyrdom, a feeling that proper ways of lives are under threat by an all powerful outsider two sides of the same coin? Or are they different revolutions which just appear similiar?

Does the media play a role in both revolutions? It seems to, Bin Ladin protests US media just as much as the christian coalition. Places like France banned headscarves and muslim fundamentalists got mad but here in the US christians get angry over the ACLU removing the 10 commandments.

Both groups object to the removal of religion from public order, both believe their courts & governments are run by ‘outsiders’ (conservatives believe liberals run everything, muslim fundamentalists believe the US & Jews run everything), both feel their way of life is under threat, and both turn to religious extremism to cope. Muslims may feel that america and jews are trying to turn muslims and arabs into vassal states, while conservatives feel the same way about the UN or international community doing that to the nation of the US. Both react with defensive patriotism based on things like nationality and religion.

If so, what is the cure? Is giving up on PC politics the cure? Is addressing the underlying discontentment the cure?

2

Huh? Most religious conservatives derive their politics from their religion, not the other way around. And I don’t see any evidence that conservatives turn to “radicalism” anymore than liberals do.

Items #1 and #2 could just as easily be used to described liberals in the US.

3

I don’t know if I’ve seen any large scale symptoms of persecution by liberals though. At least not the way I see them in conservatives.

Maybe thinking you are being victimized by a vague, all powerful force is common in people who are revolutionaries & critics. However I still don’t see how the muslim and christian fundamentalist movements are not to a degree the same revolution against a society that is becoming more secular, more international, more vulgar, more PC, etc.

4

I don’t see how “more PC” found its way in there. Especially right after “more vulgar.”

While you may have some general points, I’m not sure you can discuss Islamic fundamentalism without bringing up Western colonialism and military presences.

5

I’m afraid your really don’t understand us at all, OP. We’re not nearly so simplistically motivated as you seem to assume. Of course, your own noted choice of reading material doesn’t seem likely to give you a clear picture.

6

Personally I think there are only filament thin connections if at all.

I see Muslim fundamentalism as the result of three major factors:

1- the disollution of the Ottoman Empire
2- the backlash to the corruption of the Saudi state as their leadership went from essentially isolated backwater of complex bedouin clans, all vassals to Turks, to an almost overnight independent and richer-than-they-ever-could-have-possibly-dreamed-they-would-be-in-their-wildest-dreams monarchy with the means for rapid westernization
3- the establishment of the state of Israel and its recognition by foreign superpowers

A better argument could be made that there’s a connection between American Fundamentalist Christianity and the rise of Muslim Fundamentalism, but even then they’re most separated.

7

I am a political conservative, and I don’t think any of these statements apply to me, nor to most of my conservative friends and acquaintances. It sounds to me as if the authors of the books you’ve been reading have some cockeyed notions about the roots of American conservatism.

8

They both seem to act similarly, but I believe the reason they do is due to human nature, not to any similarity of philosophy. Also:

I feel that many conservatives act like how you say. However, that has nothing to do with how they actually feel. All of the above seems to sprout from a need to play to the ref. “Oh! We are so prosecuted!”

9

OK, re-reading the OP, I have a slightly different take on these things.

Firstly, #2 and #3 are exactly the same proposition, so let’s eliminate #2.

As I said earlier, #3 (the original #4) is demostrably false.

Most of the muslim world is being persecuted, albeit by their own governments. But if you look at not so much being physically persecuted, but rather ideologically persecuted, then it now becomes the same proposition as #2 (the original #3)

Which leaves us with:

And here I thought it was a “vast right wing conspiracy” that was working in the US, not the other way around. That leaves us with, well, nothing.

10

Wow, great post!!! It really got me thinking.

Hmmm, I wonder if there are any similarities between Islamist terrorists and American left wingers. Of course, there are HUGE differences, like the whole 72 virgin thing and a woman’s right to her own body, but let’s see…they both:

Hate George Bush
Think George Bush lied in order to go to war
Hate that America is THE world superpower
Want a new world order
Would like the US to retreat from Iraq
Would like Israel to go away
Rail to the high heavens about Abu Ghraib
Remain relatively mum about beheadings
Want to obliterate Christianity from the United States
Don’t want American homeleand security forces to use racial profiling as a tool
Want America to treat Islamic terrorism as a law-enforcement problem
Would like to see US forces under UN control
Would like Gitmo to be closed
Would like every detainee at Gitmo to have a lawyer
Would like every detainee at Gitmo to have the same legal rights as a US citizen
Both sides are willing to write off our children’s futures (albeit one through bombs, the other through public schools)
Want to turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants
Want states to issue driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants
Both think our soldiers should kill their officers (just a handful maybe, but you threw Eric Rudolph, so I thought it made sense)

So what’s the cure? How about lobotomies for both groups? Or sterilization? No–wait–since both groups no doubt dislike Republican/sex symbol Bo Derek, how about we clone a million or so Bo Dereks and open the the “Bo Derek One-Stop Brothel, ACLU Office & Mosque”? Whataya think?

Anything that brings us together…

11

Don’t have much time to post right now, but most of what you see liberals asking for bears no resemblance to what real liberals, rather than straw men, actually want.

12

Way to shit on my parade people.

And I wasn’t referring to middle road conservatives, I was referring to the extremes of conservatism.

13

At the risk of actually being helpful to the OP, let me reccomend Karen Armstrong’s excellect “The Battle for God”:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345391691/qid=1122778530/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-2356992-5124115?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

which examins the rise of fundamentalism in Christianity, Islam and Judism, and looks at some of the root similarity amoung them, specifically of fundamentalism as a reaction to modernism.

I hate to break it to you but she’d say Wesley had a point, and she knows what she’s talking about.

14

I think Op has some points.
I do see a strong reactionary movement by fundamentalist of many ilks.
Evangelicals scare me as much as west decrying Mullahs.
I think the extreme religious conservatives would love to enforce their will on the rest of the country.
What is the fight over evolution if not that?
What is the complete dread and grass root resistance to Gay Marriage?
What is the attempt to put prayer back into school?

By the way, I am not a liberal. I am just “USA” before religion. “Separation of church and state”.
Try to let people live how they want if not hurting others.

I think it is silly for Atheist and Muslims protest the Pledge of Allegiance.

15

I think the OP is on to something, but it probably takes some careful qualifiers to make it work. The response you’re seeing here is because most conservative Dopers who post here regularly are what I would call “libertarian conservatives” – fiscal conservatives who are against Big Government and, while not particularly religious themselves, generally defend the religious right because they are allies against us liberal Big Brother fans.

(The irony of it is, the religious right, like their Muslim brethren, are huge statists – they’d ultimately like to see government and religion combined into a huge oligarchy, which is why it’s so fucking funny to see them happily grazing under the Republican “big tent” with libertarian Republicans who are apparently so horrified by Democratic liberalism that they are willing to accept such allies.)

The religious right is the group most directly congruent to the Muslim fundamentalists, and I have another point to add:

  1. The Muslim Fundies and the U.S. fundies are both seriously fucked-up about sex. Both groups have a powerful interest in controlling the sexuality of women. The U.S. feminist community has been up in arms over Islamic for years before 911. They’ve also been alarmed about religious right attacks on, not just abortion, but birth control and freedom of sexual expression. I think this sexual fucked-upedness is the fire that fuels the emotional hysteria that drives fundamentalism.

Problem is, the Republicans, the “party of conservativism” that now runs the country for all practical purposes, is run by an alliance of corporate oligarchs (represented by the Bushes) and the religious right (Dobson and friends). The libertarian conservatives are a small group that is almost as powerless as the Dems in Republican circles. And the corporate oligarchs will continue to let the religious right have their way on social issues, so long as they don’t do anything that scares the mainstream enough to remove the oligarchs from political power.

16

Here are my replies, from somewhere in the middle. I do not consider myself a radical lefty liberal. I still have the same basic opinions I had before politics shifted sharply to the right (they moved, I didn’t).

Hate George Bush - Some liberals AND conservatives do, some merely dislike. Some actually like him.
Think George Bush lied in order to go to war – True, and the lack of justifying evidence strongly suggests this.
Hate that America is THE world superpower – Not true. If someone has to be the bigest dog in the yard, it may as well be us.
Want a new world order – False. Read up however on NeoCon philosophies and Dominionim sometimes. WE don’t, they do.
Would like the US to retreat from Iraq – On the fence yet. Shouldn’t have invaded, should fix our mess, at a loss what to do.
Would like Israel to go away – False. Some of the most vocal liberals are also pro Israel.
Rail to the high heavens about Abu Ghraib – Yes. Absolutely. Abu is an abomination and a travesty of “justice”
Remain relatively mum about beheadings - Bukkshit
Want to obliterate Christianity from the United States – False. Separation of church and state does not equal abolition.
Don’t want American homeleand security forces to use racial profiling as a tool – Yes and no. It’s a valid tool but is open to abuse.
Want America to treat Islamic terrorism as a law-enforcement problem – It worked in England and Italy, they caught their bombers.
Would like to see US forces under UN control – As a former GI, hell no. No foreign generals, no Gis fighting for foreign agendas. However, alliances are different.
Would like Gitmo to be closed – Yes, for the same reason as Abu.
Would like every detainee at Gitmo to have a lawyer – Yes. Due process, legal representation, justice, presumption of innocense.
Would like every detainee at Gitmo to have the same legal rights as a US citizen – Not necessarily, but should have honest and speedy trials if they are criminals, or Geneva protections if they are enemy soldiers. Are they POWs or terrorists? No vague or illegal “reclassifications”.
Both sides are willing to write off our children’s futures (albeit one through bombs, the other through public schools) – False. Liberals didn’t push creationism, intelligent designor “antievoltion” Believe science classes should teach science, not myth.
Want to turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants – False. We are all immigrants here.
Want states to issue driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants – False. Many oppose.
Both think our soldiers should kill their officers (just a handful maybe, but you threw Eric Rudolph, so I thought it made sense) – False. Nonsensical.

17

I opened the tread specifically to make the same recommendation if the OP didn’t include the book. As it is, I’ll just give a hearty second. Go buy it, borrow it from the library, or acquire it however you can. This is a MUST READ.

18

But the OP is linking Muslim fundamentalism and conservative politics, not Muslim fundamentalism and Chrstian fundamentalism.

19

The point of my post was, because of current political realities, they’re pretty much the same. The corporate oligarchs are prone the let the religious right have their way on the social issues that are so dear to them, so long as they don’t endanger the oligarch’s freedom to plunder.

20

Don’t forget the gucks. The gucks are what tie the whole thing together. After all, without the gucks you’d only have whacked out religious fanatics and evil corporate robber barons. Oh, and Diebold, too, to fix the elections. That’s why the Democrats can’t win-- they’re up against the fundies, the oligarchs, the gucks and Diebold. Everyone knows that-- it’s self evident.