“I’m a strong person. Abuse happens to weak people. Therefore, this is not abuse.”
See also last year’s thread, How much sympathy does a person deserve who keeps going back to a bad relationship?
That’s because you are, presumable, a strong person with healthy … um, mental health. As has been aptly explained by previous posters, people who stay in abusive relationships are neither mentally healthy nor strong.
It’s tough to understand the choices of someone who’s in a mental state you’ve never experienced.
(The immediate personal example that comes to mind is my parents, who almost never so much as have a half a glass of wine with dinner - pretty much just at holidays; they are so utterly bemused by my heroin-addicted cousins.)
Abusive guys don’t come with big labels on their chests. They don’t look like movie villains. Quite frequently they are charming, funny, and romantic. Especially in public. They don’t generally punch a girl on the first date.
The signs–if there are any–are usually more subtle. The guy moves quickly, telling you he loves you very soon. He persuades you into things; it starts with something completely and utterly minor, but that gives him the signal that you can be dominated. He says things that undermine your self-worth, but starts so small that it’s barely noticeable.
And so on.
Just to be clear, I’m not endorsing the bed-burning as a *good *idea, just stating that I personally wouldn’t be able to help myself. I personally would also rather spend the rest of my life in prison than one more night with the guy who just killed my cat and threatened my family. Perhaps that’s no more mentally ‘healthy’ than staying, but it’s way more satisfying.
And yes, I understand that people have mental/emotional health issues. Thing is, if you’re coherent enough to recognize that you have a problem, then it’s up to you to fix it. My question to anyone who is not happy with their life, no matter the particular circumstance, is “What are you DOING about it?” And if the answer is “Nothing”, my sympathy is going to run out very quickly.
Though I dont usually get involved in thread of this nature, I have to say that I agree 100% with DianaG here.
Taking some personal responsibility for your situation has to happen at some point; there are too many who willingly stay in the role of victim.
This is such an unbelievably complex issue. There may be literally hundreds of reasons why people in abusive relationships don’t (or can’t) leave. Lots of other people have begun to cover those reasons so I won’t go into them.
It’s easy to say ‘I wouldn’t let it happen to me’. The truth is, abusers deliberately pick those people who they can manipulate and grind down, and once you are in that situation, it is nowhere near as simple as picking up and leaving. Most people can’t understand the dynamics of abuse because it is so wildly different from their own personal experiences. Yes, victims of abuse deserve sympathy. More than that, they deserve support, and they deserve a society who doesn’t blame them and thus make it harder.
I work in this field, and I deal with people who face horrifically difficult choices and terrible risk every day. And the vast majority of those people aren’t pushovers in the rest of their lives. Most of them aren’t of low intelligence. Most of them aren’t drug addicts or sex workers. Most of them aren’t from the care system or broken families. And most of them can offer a damn good reason for still being in the relationship. These aren’t people to blame or pity, they are people to help.
Domestic abuse is more common than people think. I would go so far as to say that everyone in this thread will know someone (probably a woman) who has been, or is, in an abusive relationship. We don’t talk about it, and when we do, we tend to blame the victim for being weak and not getting out. At the risk of being preachy, I would just like to say to everyone who reads this; if anyone ever tells you they are being abused, please, please, please, don’t dismiss what they say. It’s ok to not understand, but please at least find them a phone number for a helpline so they can speak to someone who does.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that they don’t deserve help. All I’m saying is that help certainly exists, and if they choose not to utilize it, that’s on them. Sympathy isn’t the same as help, and expecting some personal responsibility isn’t the same as blame.
I’m sorry that I’m posting this kind of request in the thread, but since The Why Bird has chosen not to receive pm’s…
The Why Bird: Can you link me to any online sources of information on this topic? Specifically, I wonder if there has been much research into parent-offspring relationships where the parent is the victim. I’m also just curious in general about this abuser/victim dynamic and why neither can really “help” what they do. Thanks.
I am currently engaged to a beautiful woman whose previous relationship was with a man who emotionally and physically abused her for several years. So, I am definitely not impartial to this debate, but I would like to say that its absolutely confounding why anyone would withhold their sympathy for someone who is being abused. Perhaps it’s my inability to step outside of my own situation, but the idea of blaming those being abused because they don’t extricate themselves from such a situation is unfathomable to me. The intricacies of the psychology and history of such people become glossed over “details” in such hypothetical debates, and as others (much more eloquently than I could) have already pointed out it is nearly impossible for “objective observers” to put themselves in the shoes of abuse victims. People can speak about taking “personal responsibility” all they want, but I think the first step should be trying to understand their situations and their history of abuse (and rarely does it begin and end with one relationship), which begins with having sympathy and empathy for the victims. Without that, those who push for “personal responsibility” are being, IMO, unreasonably judgmental.
Okay fine. I sympathize. Now please point me toward a single tangible result produced by my sympathy.
We can go on forever about “psychological intricacies”, but frankly, no matter how “complicated” the *problem *is, the *solution *is simple (which is different from “easy”).
I would do everything in my power to help an abused person get away from their abuser. I will NOT offer them “sympathy” while they refuse my offers of actual help.
Your sympathy may not result in any “tangible result[s].” I don’t presume to know your involvement with or knowledge of victims of abuse. If you seriously “would do everything in [your] power to help an abused person get away from their abuser,” then there are plenty of volunteer opportunities at women’s shelters and crisis hotlines that would surely welcome your efforts (and if you already do such activities, then I thank you), and perhaps then your sympathy for said women would be doing them a great deal of good and create for you clear results.
However, I don’t know what “offers of actual help” you’ve proffered, and it seems to me that you are invested in the idea that these women are making a fully conscious, rational decision to refuse said help. I also hesitate to agree that the solution is simple. Sure, it can be simply stated (something along the lines of “Get out of that relationship”), but the facts of the matter are the laws in place to protect victims of abuse are woefully toothless, not to mention all of the logistical aspects of leaving said relationship (and all this without addressing the emotional/psychological issues that you seem to want to ignore). Honestly, it just saddens me that you are so quick to judge those who are different from you.
And it saddens me that you’re so eager to enable their self-destructive behavior in the interest of not “judging” them.
I don’t see how being sympathetic/empathetic to victims of abuse enables them.
In my opinion, when you essentially say to someone “It’s okay for you to not solve this problem. Please allow me to provide an endless supply of hugs and validation of your reasons for NOT solving it.”, you are enabling them.
We can debate “understanding” context all day long, but at some point if a person can’t take their lips from the engorged nipple of self abasement despite every incentive to do so you have to conclude it’s a choice of some kind.
If another person is complaining at length that -
She: “He got drunk and called me at 3 AM in the morning and starting calling me a whore, and told I didn’t love him or I would come to him in Chicago where he (physically healthy and unemployed for 2 + years living with his mother) could be together. And then he posted on my facebook page and started calling all my friends bumpkins and cunts” etc…
Me: So … um did you “de-friend” him and tell him where to get off.
She: Oh no! I couldn’t do that. (1) I’m all that he has - (2) I think he’s kind of clever and I mostly like seeing his posts - (3) He was just stressed - (4) I care for him, you wouldn’t understand. - etc. etc. meow, meow, meow.
Everyone is different and I’m not going to pretend to understand everyone’s situation, but this is a 23 year old young lady who has suffered no physical deprivation, and no mental or physical abuse other than the ongoing “WTF!” lectures and frustrations of her father. She is chronically insecure and despite both her parents urging her to get help with this problem with therapy or action of some kind it’s slow and frustrating going.
She’s intelligent, attractive and fucking absolutely dedicated to this slacker scumball. She will complain loudly and at length about his behavior, but I’ve concluded it’s just - "Just listen to me complain, I really don’t want a solution. My “sympathy” for her in this decade long “I will complain loudly (about my self esteem issues) and do absolutely nothing proactive to solve the problem” non-ending exercise is pretty thin at this point. I am convinced she is heading toward relationships in her later life where she will be be mentally and (probably) physically abused. It’s almost like she’s wired that way. As her father this is not a pleasant prospect to consider on any level.
It’s horrifying for me to contemplate, but it’s not all nurture. I’m starting to think some people are just wired to get emotionally abused and debased, and on some level practically demand it.
So, instead of addressing the points that I actually state, you unfairly summarize my point of view and reach that conclusion? Seriously?
I’ve never said or intimated that “it’s okay for [victims of abuse] to not” leave their relationship. Nor have I encouraged “an endless supply of hugs,” but instead spoke about some valid ways to help them get out of their situation. You can speak about your hypothetical offers of help all you want, but perhaps if you had some empathy/sympathy for these victims you would actually be doing something to help them instead of sitting in your armchair blaming them for their suffering. Empathy/sympathy for these victims will actually lead to helping them. Blaming them for their situation only leads to breeding contempt for them and ignoring their plight because they are “beneath” you.
You’re assuming facts not in evidence, and you’ve strayed far from the point.
I’m talking about people who have been offered valid ways to help them out of the situation, and refused it. Yeah, I blame them. My blame has no more effect on them then my sympathy did though, so no harm no foul.
So someone with terminal cancer is undeserving of sympathy because it doesn’t change anything?
Proffering sympathy is not about fixing things, or judgment. It is not about deciding who is deserving.
It’s about empathy, a human emotion that permits us to put ourselves in someone else’s shoes.
You can only see it from your side, “if they want out, let them leave. Giving them sympathy just enables them”. That demonstrates not only woeful naivete, especially in the face of what has been elucidated in this thread, but also an appalling lack of empathy for your fellow human beings, in my opinion.
Enables them to what, exactly? Take more beatings? Be degraded and humiliated, all so they can ‘enjoy’ being the victim? I’m pretty glad I don’t live in the cold hearted world you inhabit, yikes.
Thank heavens you’re not in the majority, I can only imagine how hard it would be for anyone to get any assistance, with anything, without a double serving of blame coming with it. Yuck.
I would argue that their self abasement is something that they should be receiving some kind of counseling for, especially if it’s leading to them being in an abusive relationship. FWIW, my advice is to encourage, and possibly help pay, for her to receive some psychiatric counseling (which she will need as being a victim of abuse often leads to PTSD). I assume that you have already spoken to her about the feelings you’ve voiced here, and I’m not in any way saying that therapy is the only answer and all that’s needed, it’s just a beginning suggestion.
My point throughout this thread has merely been that without sympathizing/empathizing with these victims, nothing is going to help them, especially as they’re unable (or, if you insist, choosing) to leave their situation. Putting the blame on the victim of abuse isn’t going to help anything, except make you think less of them (though more than likely, you can’t think less of them than they already feel about themself).
Yes, because staying in an abusive relationship is exactly like having terminal cancer. :rolleyes:
And I can only imagine how hard it would be to get anything done in a world where people deny their own agency. Yuck.