A year ago such speculation was reasonable. But we’re talking about a country that ended lockdowns over a year ago at this point and any evidence of non-reported community spread would definitely have made the news in the US – several channels even teased that such a story would come soon. But, even though CNN and others have reported from within China, they seem to be unable to find even one hidden case. They can’t find one.
So yeah, perhaps the exact numbers are not completely accurate; the same is true everywhere. But any notion of significant underreporting is beyond ridiculous at this point.
I more or less agree - I think they definitely underreported their death tolls in the beginning. The re-openings without incident are probably proof that they’ve at least brought the contagion under some degree of control, though I still suspect they’re putting their thumbs on the scales in terms of actual numbers.
Yes that’s quite probable, and they did have to revise up some of their early numbers. Also, it shouldn’t need to be said but I obviously condemn the coverup in the first couple of weeks.
It’s so weird to me being the resident China defender here on the Dope.
Living in Shanghai, I am often the person trying to educate people about XinJiang and other things that locals will not hear the truth about. But, here on the dope, I seem to need to be on the other side of things, as people seem to believe whatever conspiracy theory about China. Or just jump to conclusions about a statue to a war god being built somewhere.
I’ve been fortunate to have been here this last year; life basically went back to normal by the end of March of last year. For the May holidays just now, a lot of photos of just how crowded all the tourist spots were have gone viral (pun not intended).
And masks are not at all politicized. Despite the virtually zero risk at this point, some people still feel more comfortable wearing masks, and that’s just their choice.
A huge difference, and I think the secret to China’s success relative to other advanced nations, is that Chinese citizens have taken the virus threat very seriously. My sense is that the Chinese government has at times been a little more heavy handed than what most people outside China would be comfortable with, but simultaneously, I sense that most Chinese citizens and residents don’t seem to object. I’m guessing people remember SARS a little too well. But I’m not there.
Initial breakout was just prior to Chinese New Year. So, a nationwide, strict, long lockdown was basically a matter of saying “OK, CNY extended this year” since people were already holed up
The experience with SARS, including having lots of masks
Generally the pace of change in the cities is quite fast; people are used to just adjusting to change and not making a fuss.
In my compound, everyone was issued with a pass for their compound (you weren’t allowed to go to any compound except your own), and outdoor shelving was erected where packages and takeaway food could be placed. Then, maybe two weeks later, the passes were no longer needed, the shelving was taken down, but now you needed to show the QR code on your phone at various public places to show you hadn’t travelled or whatever. People just did it, no-one complained.
Rebelling is not cool. Obviously living in a police state has a lot to do with that. But I mean, culturally, if everyone around you is complying with some rule, you don’t want to be the one person who is not. No-one respects that.
Apples and oranges. Making fun of another country’s catastrophic death toll from a global pandemic is just gratuitously offensive.
The overall impact of such crude behavior may be far more minor than the effects of diplomatic disagreements about China-Australia trade relations, but it’s still a trumpishly spiteful and boorish thing to do.
The Gates foundation does great work, and I’m sure the same is true WRT the researchers in the study you’ve cited. I’m still skeptical that China has come clean on the number of fatalities. They almost certainly fudged the statistics in the first few months of the outbreak.
Simultaneously, I do believe that they’ve done a much better job of getting the virus under control than a lot of countries, including ours. So they probably have less death and contagion data to fudge.
Psychopaths or not, I don’t see anyone stopping the Chinese juggernaut. In another decade, Asia will be like it was during the Tang Dynasty all over again.
So it’s unfalsifiable. And you’re believing it because “it stands to reason, China can’t be trusted” right?
The actual list of who died is publically available information. Similar to what I said upthread, one clear-cut covid death that isn’t on that list would be enough for a headline story on US news; they made a big story of the number of cremation urns being really high after all. Why can’t they find even one?
Western epidemiologists studying this data or based in China itself have been very clear in their conclusions. The Lancet has published a number of articles praising China’s handling of the virus and there doesn’t seem to be pushback in the science community.
Now, I conceded that it’s possible there’s some inaccuracy; that’s true everywhere. (It’s certainly true in my native UK where they even relied on Excel spreadsheets and failed to count some deaths due to hitting the row limit ) But significant “fudging” seems very unlikely at this point and where’s the evidence?
To be clear, I think China has handled COVID well. There’s no disputing that, from the beginning until now, China has outperformed most countries in terms of controlling the spread of the virus. I’m not debating that.
But there’s little doubt that they underreported the data initially, and I think they are clearly not being transparent about the possible origins of the virus. I’m not a conspiracy theorist, but China’s refusal to be transparent inevitably invites questions. And just generally speaking, I don’t trust countries that restrict the free flow of information, which China clearly does.
Well that’s your choice. Personally I try to withhold opinion on anything until I see the evidence. See the ongoing Fermi paradox thread for an example.
Let alone in this case, where holding this particular opinion means having to handwave things like why we haven’t seen evidence where we’d expect to see a plethora. And other things that don’t make sense, like postulating an even bigger spike means accepting the virus was snuffed out even more dramatically than we currently think, which itself was supposed to be stretching credulity.
It’s the kind of behavior I would expect from an economic bully. It’s just a different form of bullying. Offensive propaganda is the least of their public relations problem.
Its ironic and sad that they would memorialize Guan Yu. He was a figure from the Three Kingdoms period. He is memorialized because he was a ‘brother’ of the nominal Han claimant to the throne. In Confucian thought, loyalty to the current leadership is valued more than effective leadership. His brothers were famous for battling the so-called evil Cao Cao Cao Cao - Wikipedia to restore the corrupt Han Dynasty. The erection of this statue is a callback to respect traditional Confucian values rather than effective government. Lets not forget that this is the same CCP that allowed millions to starve unnecessarily during the Great Leap Forward and murdered thousands of Chinese at Tian An Men Square.
Its hinted at in the classic Novel that Guan was illiterate, something very rare about prominent Chinese of his era and a clue that he was a peasant.
Once again, “they” are the owners of the museum who apparently didn’t get planning permission for building the statue.
But again, even if it were the CCP, this is a country with many thousands of statues, glorifying all kinds of figures, particularly the Bhudda. 18 of these are taller than the statue of liberty (even if we include the SoL’s pedestal). And of course there are dozens being built as we speak.
This is important context in understanding how much of a cherry pick this is.
Do you honestly believe what you wrote? The Chinese government isnt shy about removing human beings for doing things they dont have permission to do. If that statue wasnt there for a reason it would have been destroyed a long time ago. This is a government that is systematically destroying mosques.
It’s annoying whenever I debunk some nonsense about China that people feel they need to tell me how bad the Chinese government is. Yes the Chinese government is terrible, especially with regards to xinjiang.
However, many westerners have this preposterous idea that every conspiracy theory or rumour must always be true, and the vast majority just aren’t.
Yes, believe it or not, people doing things without government consent happens a lot and then all that happens is a fine or maybe nothing at all. Boring, I know. That’s why you don’t hear about that on CNN.
But anyway my main point was even if this did actually have government consent, so what? Why does this one small statue of a war god show the government’s true intentions, and the hundreds of much larger statues of the Bhudda, or of poets, or of the horrors of war don’t?
) But significant “fudging” seems very unlikely at this point and where’s the evidence?