Are Republicans evil?

Great Debates
101

You could hardly be more incorrect, AOS. First of all, the tax cut has indeed reduced taxes for the middle class. Second, the expedited impact on withholding (which you mistakenly call a loan) was promoted by the Dems. Third, even in th first year, the middle-class tax cut was greater than the expedited withholding, so the tax-payers got bigger refunds when they filed. The tax cut continues to grow over a period of years. Regardless of whether the rich got more, the middle class got a big tax reduction from Bush.

You’re not the only person to make this error. Columnist Paul Krugman (who ought to know better) misreported this situation; it has became part of the Democratic Talking Points.

102

OK, Ace, how do you explain all of us voting for Republicans then?

Why do I want the richest 1% to subjugate the political, economic, and judicial spheres?

(BTW, I am not even close to being in that 1%). If I am not simply an “evil Republican” than what is my motivation?

I understand Democrats (most of the time). You think government is good. High taxes are the reason that we live in such an affluent society. Therefore lowering taxes is bad. And you feel that rich people should pay a much higher rate of taxes, so lowering taxes for rich people is even more bad.

See, I get it. I just disagree with it.

But, your take on the opposing side’s views is what exactly? If the recent tax cuts just benefits the top 1%, why are so many other people not in this 1% for it? If we aren’t evil, perhaps we are all just being tricked or deceived?

103

Are you trying to bait me into a rant?

Cmon, if you were in the top 1%, prepared to fleece the public for trillions, don’t you think you could afford to spend a few billion on spokespeople, media companies, and politicians? Heck, I would; that’s a cheap investment! (In fact, politicans are probably the cheapest part of the deal.)

As for the rationale for people voting Republican, there are many. Who am I say whether you’re deluded about the 1 percenters’ intentions, deluded about your chances of becoming a 1 percenter, or deluded about what effect these insidious policies have on the nation, and on the economy?

Perhaps your questions was rhetorical; as the recent tax cuts do primarily benefit the 1 percenters, so your conditional resolves to the declarative.

You tell me: why do you support the Republicans?

104

Seeing as you didn’t respond to the inheritance thing, I don’t know why I bother, but…

**

I’m in the top 1% or maybe 2% I’m not sure what the number is, but I don’t have billions. I think you’re having a colossal confusion of scale.

**

Good question. Who the fuck are you to talk authoritatively about the motivations of people you don’t know?

105

I felt like your inheritance response was rather written in Greek. If you’d care to elaborate, I’d be happy to respond.

As for the rest, I’m not evaluating the mindstate, I’m evaluating the actions.

And I don’t think your tone is at all called for. This is a thread devoted to the question of “Are Republicans evil.” If you can’t handle the debate, don’t participate.

106

Well, for starters, I’d describe myself as a conservative with some libertarian leanings more than as a Republican. While Republicanism correlates with conservatism/libertarianism, one does not equal the other – I do not endorse every policy backed by the Republican party. Having said that, I think the Republican party is, broadly speaking, better aligned with me ideologically. Thus, I am a Republican because:

  1. I believe, as a general rule, private enterprise will provide goods and services more efficiently than a government agency. Thus, in forming policy the government should hold to a rebuttable presumption in favor of free market solutions over government solutions.

  2. I believe, as a general rule, that most social problems are best handled at the state and local level. The federal government should not force “one size fits all” solutions on the states without (i) showing that such action is within their Constitutionally-delegated powers, and (ii) showing that such action is federal out of necessity. Otherwise they should allow the states/local governments to find solutions tailored to their own communities. (N.B.: I believe this even if I would personally find a given community’s solutions repugnant).

  3. I believe in small government, roughly speaking. There should be a rebuttable presumption against the creation of new laws and new federal agencies.

  4. I believe in keeping taxes as low as practicable. Trimming government spending should be the favored means of balancing the budget. Taxes act as a drag on investment returns, and thus on investment, and thus on economic growth. I recognize that any tax cuts will generally benefit the wealthy more than the poor, but this does not bother me because I recognize that the reason for this is that the wealthy pay most of the taxes in the first place.

  5. I believe in a strong military. Speaking softly is nice, but you’d better be carrying a big stick if you want your words to mean anything.

  6. I believe in equality of opportunity, not of outcome.

  7. I believe in strict constructionism. While there can be plenty of argument over exactly what that means, I believe that only in giving weight to what the authors of a law or constitution meant when they wrote the interpreted document do we pay proper respect to democratic self-government.

  8. I believe that creating new grounds to bring lawsuits generally creates more problems than it solves.

  9. I believe in taking the Bill of Rights seriously – including the second amendment.

  10. I believe that whining is an inappropriate response to most of life’s difficulties.

That’s ten I thought of just now. I’m sure I could come up with more. At any rate, while I’m reasonably well-off, I’m not going to be partying with the Rockefellers any time soon (speaking of which, isn’t Ted Turner a 1%er? Is he a closet Republican?), so that means you think I’m just deluded about the effect of Republican policies on the country.

Let me try an alternative hypothesis: I’m not deluded; I know exactly what I support and why I support it; I genuinely believe those things to be best for the country; and my beliefs are not irrational or ill-informed (though they are, of course, arguable). So, do you think me “evil”?

107

The amazing thing, Dewey, is that I agree with every single one of your issues with the exception perhaps of strict constructionism, and I tend to vote Democrat.

Go figure.

108

Well, clearly Maeg, you need to come over to the dark side. :slight_smile:

Actually, I suspect the real difference is in those rebuttable presumptions. I suspect our standards of proof for overcoming the presumption would be different.

109

Whoa! All of those (except for #7, which is frequently bogus, but I digress,) are fine and honorable. If that’s all it takes, I’m just as Republican as you are!

But, though I appreciate your well-crafted post, I think it may have been wide of my poorly defined target. The question really is: Why do you support the efforts of the richest 1%, who are almost uniformly Republicans, to subjugate the political, economic, and judicial spheres at the expense of Democracy?

Or if course, if you don’t support that, let’s hear how you’re working from within…

110

Ha ha! Apocalypse Silmulpost! Help, I’m being attacked by flying pigs!! :slight_smile:

111

Wow. I went looking for this quote from my thread to add to this discussion, and I discovered that it was * you who said it! * And I meant to ask you about it, but I guess I’ll just ask you about it here.

Quote from this thread:

I’m extremely curious about this. Conceding for the moment that you do not consider the current Resident an idiot, let’s assume for the sake of the discussion that he is, since by your own admission that would be ok with you as long as you agree with him. Doesn’t it give you pause that you agree with an idiot? Why would you choose an idiot to agree with? Does the fact that an idiot embraces the ideas that you embrace cause you to question those ideas at all?

And yet, you are the guy that thinks that democrats, by the very nature of having chosen to be democrats, are incapable of understanding Republican ideas? Hmmm… well, I suppose this could mean more than one thing. After all, it could mean that Republican ideas make no sense. And since the figurehead for those ideas is an idiot…

112

If the top 1% of the population were, by chance, Democrats, do you think the status quo would be altogether different?

113

Of course I do, otherwise I wouldn’t bother voting straight Democratic in the upcoming election; nor marching on Washington, nor anything else.

Democratic representatives, and those few that crack the 1% barrier uniformly care more about people and are more honest with the issues than the most forthright Republicans.

The Republicans have done shittier things than the Democrats all the way along; the gaming of the judicial system; the bogosity of strict constructionists; the politicizing of the CBO; the defunding fraudery of the SEC; the hypocritical photo-ops – a literal flash in the pan; the demagoguery; the lying, misleading slimy racist drivel; the selling out to monied interests with both fists and certain other limbs; the attacks on sitting presidents. In each of these instances, Republicans blow away Democrats for pure evil.

From this it would be foolish to extrapolate anything other than this Democrats would do a damn better job running the country. Don’t worry, I believe we’ll have a case study soon enough.

114

I don’t think you’ve considered this quite enough. Given your views in this very thread, I’d have to question your view of #4 as “fine and honrable,” especially the last sentence thereof.

The simple fact is I disagree with your thesis. I don’t think the top 1% are trying to “subjugate the political, economic, and judicial spheres at the expense of Democracy.” Indeed, I’ve yet to hear a credible argument as to how they might be doing so.

And, as an aside, I’ll note there are plenty of prominent liberals among the ranks of the very rich. Ted Turner, as previously noted, is one obvious example. So is the sprawling Kennedy clan. So are any number of Hollywood moguls. Heck, those Ben & Jerry’s guys are doing OK. So is Steve Jobs. Are these guys in on the cabal as well?

115

Ok. Do you think the course of US history can be viewed as a conflict between Democratic and Republican values? Or is this purely a modern phenomenon?

Do you think that other periods of US history, dominated by the Democrats, were any less evil? If so, that’s fine, but by what criteria would you judge them?

116

Where do we come up with the idea that the top 1% of income, or high net worth individuals are predominantly Republican?

117

**

I wrote it succinctly in terminology and concepts you should be familiar with before you debate the subject.

When people die their heirs get a free cost basis step up to the date of death value without tax no matter how large the capital gain is.

With the repeal of the estate tax, one loses the cost basis step-up.

The rest of what I said follows from this premise.

Of who? What actions?

118

Very clever stoid. :rolleyes:

I do disagree with the notion that Bush is an idiot.

I never said that all democrats did anything. I said many. I think AceOfSpades is providing an excellent example of this right here in this thread.

If you feel that intelligence is so important than why not just have a nation-wide IQ test to determine the president?

You can easily find, here on these boards or elsewhere, Republicans that will smash their heads into their keyboards over frustration over Democrat ideas. But, you don’t see the “you murder babies” approach that so many Dems seem to take. This observation on my part is improvable, of course. But, there are examples of it right here for you to see.

And as far as the “figurehead” stuff, could I argue that all Democrats are liars because Bill Clinton lied? No, I guess not. That means that you can’t say our ideas make no sense because you claim Bush is an idiot.

119

Dare I ask…cite?

There are plenty of good and bad people on both sides of the aisle. Republicans and Democrats, broadly speaking, see different answers to the same problems. That doesn’t mean one side cares less about people or is less honest than the other.**

How, pray tell? Demcrats invented the word “Borking,” and Bush is finding his nominees stymied just as Clinton has. Both sides use the advise and consent process to shape the judiciary. There is nothing wrong with that; indeed, that is how the system is supposed to work.**

Regardless of how you feel about strict constructionism, surely you can see that there are reasonable, plausible arguments in favor of that method of interpretation. You dont have to agree with an argument to see that it isn’t “bogus.”**

A sin committed by both parties when they are in power.**

Que? This needs some elaboration. Are you saying the SEC isn’t adequately funded? That’s a judgment call. And FWIW, they’ve always had enough manpower to be a pain in my ass. “Attorney Dewey: please use a bulleted list here instead of a series in a paragraph.” :rolleyes:**

Tee-hee! Are you seriously suggesting this is a Republican phenomenon? **

Done on both sides. If anything, the Dems are worse – they’re the party bleating “what about the children” on a 24/7 basis. **

Care to be more specific? And are you seriously suggesting that there is a significant “lying gap” between the two parties? **

Yeah, like that NAACP James Byrd ad that vilified Al Gore. Oh, waitaminute…**

Yeah! Like the trial lawyers! Oh, waitaminute…**

Yeah! Like suggesting the president has done cocaine! Oh, waitaminute… **

So, again I ask: in your considered judgment, am I pure evil?**

The Dems have controlled both houses of Congress and the Presidency at the same time far more than the Repubicans in the past century. Are you hankering for another Great Society? Or Clinton’s first two years in office?

120

Nope, sorry, can’t disagree with you about #4. If however, a targeted tax cut, benefits the vast majority of rich folks and almost no poor folks, that’s pretty shitty. Y’know, like estate taxes, capital gains taxes, privatizing social security (a hidden tax!), and oh, pretty much about any tax suggestion the Pubbies come up with.

“Are these guys in on the cabal as well?” Please, you know how I feel about you and strawmen. You think Ben & Jerry are in Grover Norquist’s Thursday Meeting? :rolleyes: Oh right, as an aside

As for the 1 percenter thesis, glad you asked:

  1. Campaign finance reform: The Bush Administration and every major Republican leader tried to kill, stall, filibuster, and defeat in the womb Campaign Finance Reform in all forms. The 1 percenters were ranting to defeat this, since this is their major form of influence over the political sphere.

  2. Right Wing Interest Groups: E.g The Heritage Foundation, has bbeen conspiring for 30 years to change public policy by breaking down the walls between the judicial and executive branch. Hello, Clarence Thomas, call your office. Guess who his wife worked for.

  3. Media Conglomeration: Quick question – in which way has the Republican FCC committee been ruling in terms of Media Conglomeration? Whom is served by a silencing of diverse reporting voices? Who is the Chairman of that Committee currently? Another 1%r sweep.

  4. Tax reform, capital gains reform, and farm aid: How is it, to turn Debaser’s argument around (Hey, where’d you go?) since these are manifestly hugely weighted for the 1%rs, and yet there’s always a massive push to get these passed, despite the majority disapproval, how is it that no one seems to be able to give a coherent rationale for how they get passed? Where’d the push come from? The populace isn’t clamoring for patented drugs – when obviously wildly popular policies die stillborn, the will of the people is being clearly thwarted, and it should make us all scared and worried that our voice is slowly being drowned out by an infestation of monied interests in our body politic.