Are right turns on red optional?

Factual Questions
61

If I may offer one bit of evidence that there could be at least one jurisdiction where right-on-red is mandatory…

When I took my driver’s test to get licensed in West Virginia 12 years ago, one of the items on the score sheet which could result in a deduction of points was “Failure to make a permissible turn on red.”

That may just mean that it’s mandatory for the test but not for general situations. But seeing as how it is supposed to be a test of knowledge of the law, I’ve got to think that’s a sign. I’m curious to see what the statute says, but I suspect that it’s mandatory in West Virginia to make a right turn if you can.

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[QUOTE=aerodave]
When I took my driver’s test to get licensed in West Virginia 12 years ago, one of the items on the score sheet which could result in a deduction of points was “Failure to make a permissible turn on red.”
[/QUOTE]

That sounds like the ability to fail a British test for ‘undue hesitation’, i.e. you can’t get away with crawling around, stopping at every ‘give way’ (=yield) sign or roundabout entrance. Part of the logic being that if you aren’t able to demonstrate that you can judge these situations better, you haven’t shown the general awareness of traffic around you necessary for safety.

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[QUOTE=aerodave]
If I may offer one bit of evidence that there could be at least one jurisdiction where right-on-red is mandatory…

When I took my driver’s test to get licensed in West Virginia 12 years ago, one of the items on the score sheet which could result in a deduction of points was “Failure to make a permissible turn on red.”

That may just mean that it’s mandatory for the test but not for general situations. But seeing as how it is supposed to be a test of knowledge of the law, I’ve got to think that’s a sign. I’m curious to see what the statute says, but I suspect that it’s mandatory in West Virginia to make a right turn if you can.
[/QUOTE]

Awesome, this is exactly was I was wondering with my OP. Really are you obligated after stopping and yielding to make the turn. I’m not gonna dial *77 or anything next time I’m behind someone just sitting there at a red in a right turn lane with an empty perpendicular road, but most people do make the turn. I often find myslef getting annoyed with people not turning, then open my stupid eyes a little wider and see the “No Turn On Red” sign. This particular day, no oncoming traffic, no sign, no patience, but then it just had me wondering if they were perfectly in the right (Eww…my apologies, no punintended :smack: )

64

[QUOTE=SaintCad]
Gonna hijack the thread for a second

In California, a single left turn lane can turn into any lane (not true in every state). Two cars traveling opposite directions hit the intersection at the same time, one turning left and one turning right. Who has the right of way? IIFC, it is the right turner but the left turner can turn into the closest lane, but what if it is a single lane? What if I’m the right turner and the left turner comes into the second lane (i.e. me). Who’s at fault?
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I can’t say for sure, even after visiting the California Driver Handbook website, but my understanding is this (assuming you’re turning right, and the ‘other guy’ is turning left) –

If the other guy has a green left-turn right, then you must have a red light (unless whomever designed the intersection is an imbecile, or UWDTIIAI). Thus you have to yield, since you don’t know which lane he’ll turn into.

If you have a green right-turn light, then the other guy cannot possibly have any sort of green light (UWDTIIAI), so you have the right of way and can turn into whichever lane you wish.

If you both have green lights, then you have the right of way (according to the page on right-of-way: “When you turn left, give the right-of-way to all vehicles approaching you that are close enough to be dangerous.”).

A different but related point - when I’m waiting to make a right-turn on red onto a multi-lane street, and the lane I’m turning into happens to be clear, I may very well wait…because although it’s against the law to change lanes in the middle of the intersection, PEOPLE SOMETIMES DO ANYWAY. I’ve actually been honked at in that situation and gotten out of my car* and asked the driver behind me if my brake lights were out or my turn signal was broken, because surely there’s no other reason they would be honking at me.

–KidScruffy

*Note: I do not live in LA, and I realize that doing something like this may very well be the end of me someday.

65

[QUOTE=KidScruffy]

A different but related point - when I’m waiting to make a right-turn on red onto a multi-lane street, and the lane I’m turning into happens to be clear, I may very well wait…because although it’s against the law to change lanes in the middle of the intersection, PEOPLE SOMETIMES DO ANYWAY. I’ve actually been honked at in that situation and gotten out of my car* and asked the driver behind me if my brake lights were out or my turn signal was broken, because surely there’s no other reason they would be honking at me.

[/QUOTE]

Amen. An intersection near me has a kind of merge lane you go into while making a right on red (or on green) but there is a shopping center with a popular bank with a driveway off the merge lane. I’ve seen too many cars ram over into this lane (possibly crossing two lanes) to want to turn right on red unless there is a reasonable amount of space in the oncoming traffic.

In general, if you are behind a car who might be turning right on red, it seems wiser to pay attention to the car and not to the traffic. I’ve read of a car who hit another because the driver was positive the first driver was going to go.

BTW, the freeway exit ramp I take has four lanes, two for turning right and two for turning left. Both right turn lanes are allowed to turn right on red, assuming it is safe. You turn into a divided six lane road, so there is no problem with lane contention. In California you are also allowed to turn left on red, onto a one-way street.

BTW-2, the issue Dex brought up was the topic of a pit thread (a long one) some time ago.

66

Although they may have the right to do so, it is irksome to be blocked by someone who fails to turn right on red when the coast is clear (and I can also see the coast is clear).

Another bugger is when people fail to turn left on red from a one-way street to another one-way street when it is safe to do so.

Also irritating is when people honk at me for failure to turn on red when it is not safe for me to do so. I was going left on red (one-way streets), but this intersection had a red light that came on every now and then saying “NO LEFT TURN”. Well the light came on but the guy behind me was honking at me to turn. I didn’t really know why the light came on, but I wasn’t about to risk it. It turns out the light rail train was coming straight through and I would’ve turned left directly in front of it had I gone. Anyway, I pointed at the train and the guy behind me gave an apologetic wave. That was nice.

Another bugger is being stopped by a left red arrow when I can clearly see there is no oncoming traffic.

67

[QUOTE=Bearflag70]
Another bugger is when people fail to turn left on red from a one-way street to another one-way street when it is safe to do so.
[/QUOTE]
This, by the way, is still always illegal throughout North Carolina. The topic comes up every year, and the main argument is that it would imperil blind pedestrians.

When I lived in Virginia, where one-way left-on-reds are legal unless posted otherwise, one of the saddest days of my life was when someone replaced the traffic signal at a left-turn-on-red intersection with a stop sign. It just wasn’t as much fun after that.

68

[QUOTE=KidScruffy]
If the other guy has a green left-turn right, then you must have a red light (unless whomever designed the intersection is an imbecile, or UWDTIIAI).
[/QUOTE]

So what if the designer is an imbecile? There are multiple intersections around where I work where I in the right lane have a green light, as do the people across the intersection from me who are turning (to their) left - meaning we are both allowed to go into the same lane at the same time. :rolleyes: I haven’t noticed a “left turn yield on green” sign from their direction, either, but I suppose it could be there and they ignore it. Being as we’re not crossing both lanes like they are, we have the right of way, don’t we?

69

I learned to serenely ignore all honks, hand gestures, and insulting comments in Massachusetts and Rhode Island. Often people would honk even if they were honking for you to do something illegal or unsafe. RI in particular seems to foster an odd behavior where motorists yield the right of way to pedestrians in unsafe circumstances, then become infuriated and swear at the pedestrian who has, perhaps sensically, declined to pass in front of the car and into a second lane of traffic that is not stopping for pedestrians.
ETA, and maybe someone has already said it: Oregon has left turn on red under some circumstances, which are poorly understood by the driving populace.

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[QUOTE=elfkin477]
There are multiple intersections around where I work where I in the right lane have a green light, as do the people across the intersection from me who are turning (to their) left - meaning we are both allowed to go into the same lane at the same time.
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Is it not part of your traffic rules that those turning left in such a situation necessarily yield to the oncoming right-turning traffic?? I.e. they perform the left turn when it is clear to do so?

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[QUOTE=Shoshana]
I learned to serenely ignore all honks, hand gestures, and insulting comments in Massachusetts and Rhode Island. Often people would honk even if they were honking for you to do something illegal or unsafe. RI in particular seems to foster an odd behavior where motorists yield the right of way to pedestrians in unsafe circumstances, then become infuriated and swear at the pedestrian who has, perhaps sensically, declined to pass in front of the car and into a second lane of traffic that is not stopping for pedestrians.
ETA, and maybe someone has already said it: Oregon has left turn on red under some circumstances, which are poorly understood by the driving populace.
[/QUOTE]

Dear Lord, I hate Rhode Island.

72

[QUOTE=galt]
Hee hee. Same intersection, looking south, another clogger (making a right turn towards the camera) caught: Bing

Incidentally, I was going to make a comment about how much better the image quality is on the microsoft site, until I realized we’re looking at pictures of Redmond and went, “well, duh!” :smiley:
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That photo looks like it was taken from an airplane or helicopter as opposed to a satellite.

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[QUOTE=elfkin477]
So what if the designer is an imbecile? There are multiple intersections around where I work where I in the right lane have a green light, as do the people across the intersection from me who are turning (to their) left - meaning we are both allowed to go into the same lane at the same time. :rolleyes: I haven’t noticed a “left turn yield on green” sign from their direction, either, but I suppose it could be there and they ignore it. Being as we’re not crossing both lanes like they are, we have the right of way, don’t we?
[/QUOTE]

Oops, I meant a “green left-turn Light”, not ‘right’. If you are making a “protected turn”, i.e., one where you have a green arrow pointing in the direction you are going, you should not have to yield to anyone. I say this not because this is the way it is, but because that way seems intuitive to me. If idiots are designing the intersections, then everything goes out the window and you should only turn if you have at least 2 green lights, and a traffic cop waves you on, and there is no approaching traffic within 3 miles.

If you both have normal green lights, then I agree, the person turning right should have the right of way, not the person turning across lanes of traffic.

74

I don’t know about elsewhere, but in PA, you HAVE TO stop at a red light before turning. You can’t just cruise through it like it’s green. I was at a T intersection on the ‘top’, turning right down the ‘stem’ of the T. I didn’t stop at the red light because I knew the other lane was red too, and there was only one car stopped at the light anyhow. I mean, I could see it from WAY down the street. Didn’t stop that same car from flipping on his red-and-blues and writing me a $150 ticket- “Failure to obey traffic control device”

Funny adendum- at the time I had a warrant out for my arrest…for overdue library books…I kid you not. When I went to pay the fine, they arrested me. I explained that I’d returned the books and paid the fine. Good thing the library was right next door. The judge ran over, checked w/ them, and they let me go.

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[QUOTE=IntelSoldier]
I don’t know about elsewhere, but in PA, you HAVE TO stop at a red light before turning. You can’t just cruise through it like it’s green.

[/QUOTE]

That’s theoretically true in California. In practice though, people cruise through and then look annoyed at you for having the nerve for being in their lane.

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[QUOTE=sturmhauke]
That photo looks like it was taken from an airplane or helicopter as opposed to a satellite.
[/QUOTE]
What difference does that make?

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[QUOTE=ntucker]
What difference does that make?
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I was commenting on why the second photo looked sharper.

78

Here in NY, in certain places (Queens, Manhattan) there’s no turn on red unless a sign says it’s OK. In other places (rest of Long Island) turn on red is ok unless there’s a sign that says it’s not OK (usually blind intersections, although the traffic department in my area lately has been using a very broad definition of blind).

That said, you must always stop before turning. I almost got a ticket for turning without stopping first at a red light.

In places where it’s ok to turn on red, I’m thinking it’s legal to choose not to turn despite annoyed beeping cars behind you, since many trucks and school vehicles have signs on them that say “this vehicle stops at train tracks… this vehicle does not turn on red”.

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[QUOTE=elfkin477]
So what if the designer is an imbecile? There are multiple intersections around where I work where I in the right lane have a green light, as do the people across the intersection from me who are turning (to their) left - meaning we are both allowed to go into the same lane at the same time…
[/QUOTE]

Do you mean that there is only 1 lane being turned into?

80

[QUOTE=TimeWinder]
I’m Oregonian, too. These signs exist as indicators of the same situation others have mentioned above: the right turner has a dedicated lane after the turn (usually a few hundred feet of merge lane). They’re not incredibly common, although there’s one at the exit from my place of business, so I see it daily.

[/QUOTE]

Not always–I can think of five places off the top of my head where the no-stop right is the upright approaching a T intersection and either the cross traffic lanes both have to stop or the lane going right to left (relative to the person turning right at the T) doesn’t stop at all, and several others where the no-stop right is at a four way intersection. I see these a LOT in SE Portland, hardly ever in Beaverton for some reason. Oregon is weird…