Sorry for the late reply.
There are some parts of Scripture that should be taken literally and some that shouldn’t; unfortunately, determining which is which can be impossible for some passages. Some parts, such as the verse in Proverbs “Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will stand before kings; He will not stand before obscure men (Proverbs 22:29)” are only meant to be axiomatic; there are, of course, many skilled people in the world who toil in obscurity.
It’s impossible to determine which passages are meant to be taken literally and yet following the scripture correctly determines the fate of your eternal soul?
To me this is where spirituality diverges from religion. Spirituality means you can feel the difference between right and wrong whereas religion has decided for you which passages are to be taken which way. They substitute the wisdom of their scholars from the word of God. I can understand how this would serve those who still seek redemption and can’t tell the difference but it becomes another human layer between them and the truth.
Once you have accepted that the word is not literal, which it seems is the majority view, then you can start to wrestle with the concepts it wants you to understand which to me is the more important goal. Your spirituality is supposed to be a personal relationship with your creator.
Churches serve a valuable service. They are there for fellowship and to foster the foundation needed to continue that personal journey of salvation. Like Jesus said “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” That’s a hugely valuable service to provide such a place on an ongoing basis.
With such a diverse multiplicity of beliefs and with the need to provide structure for those new to or struggling with belief it’s no wonder that churches profess a strict definition of their rules to keep things accessible. It’s like the rules you learn in elementary school grammar are extremely important to follow but are not a crime to break for those who understand the rules and is breaking them for a reason.
I believe that the intention is more important than the action as regards to rule breaking and there is no way for fellow humans to truly know this which is why it’s important not to judge the state of the persons relationship with their creator or why they made the choices they did.
This is an old view that I’ve have and one I have forgotten in the era of more activist American churches pushing concepts I’m uncomfortable with. My reaction to this bothers me. I’ve let the squeeky wheel define the entire bicycle for me which is pretty much what I find objectionable when I hear churches doing this to people they deem sinners. Considering that I expect that a church is filled with sinners seeking a path to redemption it’s really wrong of me to judge their place on the path to enlightenment.
I’m painting church members with the same broad brush that I don’t want to be painted with with predictable results. I can’t or haven’t been in any case able to change this but I can account for it.
So when I was trying to seek understanding of those of a certain belief I came to see that on a whole things aren’t defined by these people and that in general things are working like they’re supposed to. If people in the church are in general wrestling with the same issues that I am and coming to beliefs similar to mine then I’d say things are working about like they should.
What needs working on is my attitude and I’ve already written and edited the “but …” continuation but they are all just buts. It’s interesting to see what one well timed post can inspire in terms of thoughts.
I won’t apologize for my attempt at humor while tweaking the nose of religion. If God didn’t want to be joked about then he really screwed up by giving me my sense of humor. I think God would understand that though because he would be able to know the intention and judge that. I can totally get where humans don’t have that luxury so I can get the response my jokes have.
I’ll close with an anectdote. My brother in law I described earlier was one who found the concept of laughing about religion disrespectful and he didn’t approve of it. I took the opposite view that it didn’t mean that at all. Then I told him my version of this joke as an example
This got a laugh and a rise out of him at the same time. This was one of the times, as he’d say, I got him.
bolding mine
This is all so self-centered, when we’re supposed to be God-centered. The truth of God and His relationship with us doesn’t depend on how you “feel”. He is Truth. It’s our job to understand His will and follow it through His grace, not through our feelings. This doesn’t mean that following Him and know He loves us doesn’t provide a feeling of content and happiness, but feelings don’t determine if something is moral.
Not at all. He is there with us every step and ready to help us with His grace, if we are open to it and ask for it. If He was leaving us on our own, He wouldn’t have become incarnate and died for us.
Then it’s his job to proofread that instruction manual of his, because it’s a holy mess right now.
Many millions of people have prayed for help, guidance, and grace…and not received it.
This has actually led some theologians to claim that Jesus did not die for all of us, but only for the elect.
“Many millions”? I wonder how that claim could be validated. Anyway, just because God does not seemingly answer prayers in the way we want Him to does not mean He does not hear them, nor answer them. Read the book of Job and you will clearly see an example of that.
As for the “theologians” statement I would have to conclude that anyone coming up with that conclusion are not “theologians” in any real sense.
I am not sure what you mean by “elect”. Just who are the elect?
Jesus DID die for all of us.
Patti Smith begs to differ.
And THE LORD said to Abraham: I, uh, I messed up making the penis. I’m gonna need you to do me a favor and cut a little bit off from the top.
Well, how about the millions of Christians who have died in fires, wars, by drowning, diseases, by crime, and so on. Either they did not pray for help…or they did pray and did not receive it. Do you seriously want to argue that not a single one of them prayed for help?
And if the story of Job is an example of God answering prayers – by allowing Satan to torment the shit out of his victim! – God is showing a remarkable disregard for ordinary moral decency.
No real Scotsman, then? If they don’t agree with your theology, they aren’t a real theologian? The doctrine of the elect is still around, and there is no shortage of Christian scholars who hold that Jesus died only for those elect. Don’t argue with me; argue with the churches that hold this doctrine. Do you think the Presbyterian Church is not “truly Christian?”
How do you know they didnt get help? You dont always get what you ask for when you pray.
So the Christian guy who was in the midst of a fire prayed for help, and god gave him a rubber ducky?
He got solace and the certain knowledge he was going to Heaven, perhaps.
Would help him as much as a rubber ducky, but I get your point. You religious guys just think different than me, I’m more practical and would prefer to let appear some firefighters, but to each his own.
Don’t forget the queue jumping, and using their cell phones at the movie theater.
if you are a believer, solace and the certain knowledge he was going to Heaven is a great answer. If you are not, then you arent expecting firemen as a answer anyway.
Miracles are very rare.
I still suspect that 99 % of religious folks who died in a fire thought ‘Fire! Get me outta here!’ rather than ‘All is well, I’ll be in heaven soon.’, except for all the true believers who got burned at the stake by other true believers.
Sure of course they did. Again, miracles are very rare. Nowhere are miracles promised or expected.
Go to mormon heaven, they’ll be lots of sex there.
But why? Doesn’t love Jesus all his sheep? Why does he (or his father avatar) grant some more of them a miracle here and there, just for convenience and, well, good-will?