Are SSRI antidepressants worthless in the long term?

Great Debates
61

I’ve been on anti-depressant meds for 20+ years now, and I feel I can confidently say that without them I would have killed myself long ago. There have been a lot of really good points made in this thread … but none of them where made by drad dog.

Apologies on preview, I didn’t mean for this to end up quite so quote boxy or long. The snark is intentional though.

Yes, I’m sure there are plenty of doctors out there who think to themselves, “Screw this healing the sick and that silly Hippocratic Oath I took, I’m totally going to sell out my patients for all that sweet, sweet, big pharma money.”

Given that many of these drugs are fairly new, it is actually impossible to 100% understand what the long term effects are. It’s good to see that you’re only expecting the impossible while slandering the entire profession.

Well, there is a huge organisation that exists to evaluate drug safety, and my understanding is that doctors are not allowed to prescribe meds that have not been approved. So I don’t see why doctors assuming drugs are benign is a sign of gross incompetence throughout the entire profession.

Do you have a cite for that particular piece of bullshit? The fact that malpractice insurance exists kinda shoots holes in that theory. Doctors of all sorts can lose their license to practice medicine, including psychiatrists.

I don’t have to imagine, I lived it. For fucking years, no less. Eventually, I found a combination of drugs that reduced my symptoms to the point where I stopped thinking about killing myself on a regular basis. I’m not cured, but I’m in a better place, and I went through absolute hell to get here.

So I have sympathy for someone who’s had some hard knocks bouncing around in the system. It sucks, without a doubt. But when you associate all shrinks with psychopaths, you lose a lot of that sympathy, as well as making me doubt that you are a real person with real problems, and are instead a Scientologist with an axe to grind.

I’ve never been prescribed benzo’s long term, and every doctor who has has prescribed them to me short-term has been very clear on tolerance and addiction issues. Again, I’m sorry you went through this, but it doesn’t match my experience or the experiences that others I know have shared with me.

You are putting your life in someone else’s hands whenever you drive on public roads. Not a very convincing argument.

Which drug requires two years to wean yourself off? Please cite that shit or I calll bullshit.

So trusting a doctor is crazy, but trusting a bunch of untrained yahoo’s on an anonymous internet message board is totally legit. Good to know. I shall now forget that the plural of anecdote isn’t evidence, forget all the training the pros go through, for now I know the truth that random internet yahoo’s are where it’s at.

Really? The following sentence, from the same post, came from a place or respect?

First of all, that’s not an analogy, it’s a simile. Second, it’s fucking terrible simile. I know some psychopaths who give very good life advice to others, as they tend to have a unique viewpoint. Third, it’s completely unconnected with reality, and makes you seem like a member of the tin-foil hat brigade.

Also, I’ve never dealt with a psychopharm doctor. Other than sounding like an insulting term for psychiatrists, is that a real thing?

But comparing psych doctors to psychopaths is totally legit, amIrite?

Whereas psych meds are tested by shamans commuting with the spirits? I’m pretty sure they use scientific test there too.

Simply because the science is newer doesn’t make it science. I do agree with the idea that prescription meds shouldn’t be advertised to the public, but I feel that way about all prescriptions, not just psych meds.

You are correct that it is not science, however it’s also not even remotely close to the truth. Do you even know anyone in real life who has been treated for depression?

Captain Obvious would like to remind you that all mental states are relative. Your claim that depression doesn’t compare to drug withdrawal I find both offensive and inaccurate. I’ve gone off benzos, and it isn’t even in the same ballpark as my depression at it’s worst, though it does aggravate it.

So you’re the one advancing crazy theories, but I’m supposed to do your research for you? That’s so not happening. You can either link some of that “research” here for us to look at, or I will happily disregard your claim. The burden of proof here is on you, not me.

Quoted for stupidity. May I suggest a heavier grade of tin-foil for your hat?

Sounds like you need to stop seeing GP’s for your mental issues, and see a real professional. I haven’t been presribed by a GP in over a decade, I see a shrink for hour long appoinments weekly, she manages my meds. She’ll admit when something isn’t working, and she works with me so I understand what’s going on. In other words, the exact opposite of what you are claiming.

I’m not claiming that the process you describe never happens, but I’m not accepting your claim that it is the default without some form of evidence.

This seems like a good place for a pot and kettle analogy for some reason I can’t put my finger on.

Newsflash: People do their jobs for business reasons. Also, I’m not sure here, but it appears that you are implying that all mental health professionals have personal psychopathology, but because they are too busy screwing over people for profit they can’t screw them over because they are psychopaths. Is that correct?

I read your cite. Despite coming from a website run by someone who talks to aliens through a Ouija board, the original source seemed legit. The only problem is that it doesn’t prove what you seem to think it proves. How do a percentage of studies not being published prove the entire industry is corrupt?

I don’t think the word palliative means what you think it means.

This is true. However …

This statement does not sound like it came from a reasonable person. This statement sounds like it came from either a scientoligist with an axe to grind who has never seen a shrink in their life, or a paranoid schizophrenic who needs treatment. Actually, damn near everything you’ve posted in this thread seems like that. All sarcasm aside, get some help, you need it.

62

Mith:

Sorry you worked so hard on that and didn’t get a chance to read my last post.
Palliative:
(of a treatment or medicine) relieving pain or alleviating a problem without dealing with the underlying cause.

I used it correctly.

I’m not the enemy. You do not have to find offense at someone who is angry at the medical profession or imply other motives. You don’t have to stamp out a message you don’t want to hear, although that is the way on SD many times. I’m just spreading the word on things that may affect anyone, based on my personal experiences. Don’t ask for whom the bell tolls guy.

Still don’t know where I lied, if that’s what you’re implying.

If you doubt that Drs prescribe more and different meds to deal with your increasing, or multiplying problems, even if the problems came from the meds, then what is your model of reality? What else are they going to do? They are psychopharmacists

63

Mith: You’re English? (You said GP)

This is from the home page of Benzo UK, which you must have heard of.

The Prime Minister on Benzodiazepine Addiction: “First, I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman (Jim Dobbin, MP), who has campaigned strongly on this issue over many years. I join him in paying tribute to Professor Ashton, whom I know has considerable expertise in this area. He is right to say that this is a terrible affliction; these people are not drug addicts but they have become hooked on repeat prescriptions of tranquillisers. The Minister for Public Health is very happy to discuss this issue with him and, as he says, make sure that the relevant guidance can be issued.” - Rt. Hon. David Cameron MP, Prime Minister, October 23, 2013.

“Benzodiazepine prescribing guidelines [published in 1988] have had no effect whatsoever on prescribing and GPs are now being sued…they are being picked off one by one and the size of damages being paid will force the medical defence unions to issue further warnings. This is an ongoing problem which has not been addressed by the medical profession, but is at last being addressed by the legal profession.” - Professor Malcolm H Lader, Emeritus Professor of Clinical Psychopharmacology, King’s College, London, January 2012. More Quotations »»

“Klonopin - more deadly than coke” - Stevie Nicks, 2009 (video clip). More Quotations »»
“It is more difficult to withdraw people from benzodiazepines than it is from heroin. It just seems that the dependency is so ingrained and the withdrawal symptoms you get are so intolerable that people have a great deal of problem coming off. The other aspect is that with heroin, usually the withdrawal is over within a week or so. With benzodiazepines, a proportion of patients go on to long term withdrawal and they have very unpleasant symptoms for month after month, and I get letters from people saying you can go on for two years or more. Some of the tranquilliser groups can document people who still have symptoms ten years after stopping.” - Professor Malcolm H Lader, Royal Maudesley Hospital, BBC Radio 4, Face The Facts, March 16, 1999. More Quotations »»

“The biggest drug-addiction problem in the world doesn’t involve heroin, cocaine or marijuana. In fact, it doesn’t involve an illegal drug at all. The world’s biggest drug-addiction problem is posed by a group of drugs, the benzodiazepines, which are widely prescribed by doctors and taken by countless millions of perfectly ordinary people around the world… Drug-addiction experts claim that getting people off the benzodiazepines is more difficult than getting addicts off heroin… For several years now pressure-groups have been fighting to help addicted individuals break free from their pharmacological chains. But the fight has been a forlorn one. As fast as one individual breaks free from one of the benzodiazepines another patient somewhere else becomes addicted. I believe that the main reason for this is that doctors are addicted to prescribing benzodiazepines just as much as patients are hooked on taking them. I don’t think that the problem can ever be solved by gentle persuasion or by trying to wean patients off these drugs. I think that the only genuine long-term solution is to be aware of these drugs and to avoid them like the plague. The uses of the benzodiazepines are modest and relatively insignificant. We can do without them. I don’t think that the benzodiazepine problem will be solved until patients around the world unite and make it clear that they are not prepared to accept prescriptions for these dangerous products.” - Dr Vernon Coleman, Life Without Tranquillisers, 1985. More Quotations »»

“Benzodiazepines are indicated for the short-term relief (two to four weeks only) of anxiety that is severe, disabling or subjecting the individual to unacceptable distress, occurring alone or in association with insomnia.” CSM, January 1988. See also the CMO’s Update, 2004 and the BNF Guidance, November 2013.
I hadn’t seen where you said you got off benzos last post.

It brings up the question: How could you ask what drug takes years to get off of?

If you got off OK you were lucky.

64

I guess I don’t like being called a scientologist. Must mean I am not one. Though you have no call to ask me that.

When you say : "That’s Benzos. I’m talking about SSRI"s or “My Dr is compassionate, sorry about yours”, you are ignoring the large picture that is really going on. All these Drs are part of the industry and you may be affected directly or indirectly though yourself or family or friends or social realities, regardless of the drug you are on or the Dr you have. And you don’t know how the cards fall tomorrow anyway.

Don’t ask for whom the bell tolls.

65

Well the evidence seems to be in. SSRI are mainly placebo and has lots of negative side effects. They have been very successfully marketed by using false information. Now they are a huge industry and many people are addicted to them.

66

For the record, I’m not writing any of this for you. I’m posting this for the same reason that coremelt stated in post #37: the fear that someone who is depressed will read your bullshit and not seek treatment.

So you are trying to claim that your opponents argument doesn’t deal with the underlying cause, but your “truth” does. Nope, don’t buy it.

Yes, you fucking are. You are trying to convince people to forsake treatment for mental illness because the “psychopharm” docs are all lying and evil. The end result will lead to increased human suffering, as people don’t seek treatment for treatable illnesses. That makes you my enemy, full stop.

Wrong. I’m not offended that you’re angry at the medical profession, I would be too if I had gone through what you had. I also have no power or desire to stamp out your message, but I can and do have the power to argue against it as I feel it is harmful.

If that was all you were doing, I wouldn’t be posting this. You are not just sharing your personal experience, you are clearly advocating against mental health professionals.

Canadian, actually. We tend to borrow words and spellings from either side of the pond, and GP is pretty common used up here for General Practitioners.

I’m mostly skipping the benzo debate, as I can actually read the title of the thread, which clearly refers to SSRI’s, not benzos. They can be bad news, I’ll agree with that. They also have nothing to do with the long-term effectiveness with SSRI’s, except for the people who prescribe them.

For the record, I kicked benzos with no formal treatment. I personally found it harder than giving up powdered or crack cocaine, but less difficult than kicking crystal meth or oxycodone. (For the record, I do not advocate anyone does any of these drugs.) YMMV.

Yes, I do. Nothing in the rules that states that you can’t be asked questions. You are not required to answer, however. When you dodge those questions, people will draw conclusions. Also, not liking being called a scientologist doesn’t mean you aren’t one. Why the coy dodge?

The big picture only you can see? Those are usually called paranoid delusions, I’m sorry.

Captain Obvious agrees this statement is both completely true and so vague as to be completely useless.

Neither do you.

67

Well, damn, I just read this thread, and I read so such evidence. Care to post a link or cite, or just admit you’re full of shit?

68

You went to all that trouble and you didn’t answer my question…

If you doubt that Drs prescribe more and different meds to deal with your increasing, or multiplying problems, even if the problems came from the meds, then what is your model of reality? What else are they going to do? They are psychopharmacists

I also notice you skipped out on the Benzo debate after asking me what drugs took years to get off, and calling me out on it as a fabricator. When I tell you, you don’t want to talk about it? Obviously you haven’t been on benzos or were so lucky as to be oblivious to the dangers it represents to others.

Seeing a larger picture is “usually called a paranoid delusion”??? Overkilling things much captain?

It was the predicate to a statement you think is so obvious as to mean nothing.

I’m not against getting help, through chemicals if necessary.

But if you’re going to pin the tail on me about hurting vulnerable people out there, forget it.

It is a big decision to try to change ones personality with chemicals, and it can’t be done lightly. Things can go wrong and the Dr who you thought was so great won’t be there making everything OK anymore. He may have a Harvard diploma, and that’s great. But he could be a student of the guy I had.

Please answer my questions and tell me where I’m fabricating or lying.
OK captain?

69

I already did post the link, and I don’t see any need to make it personal. I didn’t invent SSRI and I didn’t uncover the “scandal”. If you read the link you can probably figure it out for yourself, if you don’t agree that is fine, but don’t make any personal attacks.

70

My apologies, I missed the link you posted earlier today.

As for the link, it was the infamous 2008 meta-study done by Irving Kirsch, which I have encountered before. I do disagree with it, simply because it doesn’t match up with my experience of my life changing when I finally found the right drug combo, and my life not changing when I was on other drugs that should have triggered the placebo effect. Here’s two counter-cites that point out some of the flaws in the study.

It appears to be far more complicated than Kirsch makes it sound.

71

Those links seem to agree with the article I posted, in fact I had already read one of them. I don’t see the big deal. We (as in the public) got cheated by pharma reps who managed to persuade psychiatrists. If you haver a profit driven pharmacological/medical system that’s the sort of thing that you need to expect. Corruption and scandals aren’t really a “new thing”.

72

Drad dog, I am happy to agree that benzodiazepines are dangerous to take long term. But this thread is about SSRIs. I happen to know a large number of people who have taken them long-term and who feel they benefited from them. They did not end up hooked on lots of other random drugs. They are functional human beings who took a cheap pill at a stable dose for varying amounts of time.

73

Nobody is saying they don’t work, they are saying that they are mainly placebo. Placebo works. I guess some people get miffed at the idea that their recovery is a placebo or related to something else, not sure what the big deal is, you feel better, good for you.

74

I’m glad for you and I have experience in all these matters. I support you.

My point is that it is the same Drs who give you SSRIs and benzos. In the same offices, same hospitals, Same Insurance companies, Drug manufacturers, salesmen, and $$. They are not separate worlds. Most people who end up on Benzos are polydrugged in some way. Benzos represent a crisis in ones life that pushes that way.

I don’t know how many SSRI users are polydrugged but it is much less I’m sure. I don’t think anyone here is arguing with anyone elses’ positive experience.

But Mith agreed that I don’t know what will happen in the future and he doesn’t either and none of us do, although he didn’t understand why I said it: I am the one urging caution in these matters, because of my experiences.

75

Hey, when my kid was little, I mixed up a bottle of water, corn syrup, and a little food coloring, labeled it “Placebo”, and gave him a teaspoon of it every 4 hours when he had a cold, or some other malady that I didn’t have any actual medicine for. Worked great. I am a fan of the placebo effect. I don’t believe antidepressants are purely placebos, because so very many people need to try a lot of them before finding one that works. But if they are, well, they are relatively safe, and very cheap.

And those are the same offices, hospitals, insurance companies, drug makers, salesmen, and $$ that provide insulin and anitbiotics, and opiate pain killers (which are really damn addictive). What’s your point?

Hey – you forogt to mention drug stores.

I never understand when people claim there’s sme big money motive in pushing SSRIs. Have you ever priced those things? A lot of them are off patent, and very cheap. A month’s worth at a typical dose costs about $5

http://www.goodrx.com/fluoxetine

No one is getting rich off that.

76

I made a distinction before about organic disease and injury, and psychiatry. I don’t need to do it again.

The same Drs do not give you insulin and SSRIs. I’m talking about mental health, where the diagnostics are nebulous, and shifting, and in many cases imaginary, on the part of the patient, the Dr or both. Certainly they exist in your mind and not on an x ray or other objective measure. In mental health we don’t have the same objective guidelines as other fields. It is very exploitable. Think drug companies don’t know that? The info that gets to the Drs comes from the drug companies, and in my experience they will go with it. (You fill in your own reason why. I’m not a scientologist.)

SSRI prescribing is guesswork heavily influenced by that literature (And by grants, fellowships, consultancies granted by drug companies). They don’t know how you will react. It can be badly, or not at all. You certainly can’t obtain immediate relief, if you need it. You have to wait weeks to know anything. If it doesn’t “work” you need to take some time and get off them and try another one. If it’s "bad’ and you can’t stand to go in to your job in the meantime he may suggest seroquel or Risperdal or a benzo. Then you have to make a tough decision. They and you will make another “educated” guess about what to do with more at stake. If you are comparing that with what an oncologist, or a cardiologist does, that’s ridiculous.

If you want to believe the drug companies are not operating for maximum profit go ahead, but you know that’s not realistic. Psychiatric drugs are taken on a maintenance basis usually. There’s money in that. But you are getting lost in parsing my statements.

http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/watchdogreports/doctor-with-financial-ties-to-drug-makers-at-center-of-sales-boom-of-new-anticoagulants-b99545722z1-320378201.html

That is a link to a recent story on Drs, Drug cos, and $$.
Heres another:

77

Oh Boy. I never thought I would have to defend this premise so I didn’t do the googling til now. It isn’t hard in the slightest.

http://www.alternet.org/personal-health/some-psychiatrists-distancing-themselves-profession-drug-company-dominance-makes

These are my “paranoid delusions”.
How are yours? Comfortable I imagine.

78

SSRI’s are the older and less effective form of Anti-Depressant. Yes they do suffer from loss of effectiveness over time. I know several people on long term (more than two years) Anti Depressants and they are NOT taking SSRI’s. They are prescribed the newer options which work better long term. SSNRI, Tricyclics or SARI’s. If you read reports in the CrazyMed forums of actual people on SSRI / SNRI you will see many anecdotes talking about SSRI poop out and the later options that worked better for them.

Here is one study:

Anyone that is taking anti-depressants and find that they no longer work should go talk to a Doctor again about other options.

79

you did, and you are largely wrong. That’s in part because you are overestimating the science in a lot of non-psychological treatment, by the way. It’s not as if the drug companies are acting out of pure charity when they choose which data to publish for a new cancer drug, either. And there is plenty of room to incent doctors to prescribe cholesterol drugs,…

And the doctor who actually prescribed my SSRIs was my gp, the same guy who prescribes my omeprazole. He also gave me a referral to a psychologist, who didn’t prescribe anything, not being an MD.

80

I’m sorry for your pain. If you are trying to say something I’m not getting the gist of it.

You’re parsing like crazy small bits of a statement and leaving the meaning on the cutting room floor.

Read the links. I didn’t write them.