Are the French America's 'friend'?

Great Debates
1

It seems that passions are still running high against the French in some quarters of America. I was listening just today to two guys talking about the French and what poor ‘friends’ they are to America. I’ve seen numerous ‘Boycott France’ bumperstickers floating about still. The other night on Fox, O’Reilly was blasting the French and he had on a professor of history claiming that historically the French haven’t been very good ‘friends’ to America. From this I conclude that tensions are still running high, at least from certain American citizens perspectives, against France.

So, first off, what exactly does it mean for one country to be ‘friends’ to another? What does it mean to you, the poster in this thread? Secondly, from a historical perspective, it seems that ‘friendship’ between countries is a back and forth proposition…look at the US’s relationship to the UK for instance. So, with that in mind, has the French been poor ‘friends’ to America historically? Thirdly, are the French poor ‘friends’ to the US today? If so, what would constitute a good ‘friend’ to the US. If not, why not? Finally, anyone living in France or who has visited recently…some perspective on the French peoples outlook on America would be good. What do THEY think of whats happened between France and America? What are their feelings towards America? Tensions still running high the other way as well?

I really am curious. Myself, I’m fairly neutral about the French. I’ve been to France several times, and while I’ve found the countryside wonderful, I’ve been less impressed with the French people. I haven’t found them as friendly as, say, the British or the Spanish, other countries I’ve spent time in. And while I didn’t find the Germans exactly brimming with friendlyness, I didn’t find them as actively hostile as some in France were to me on finding out I was an American. And this was before 9/11, Afghanistan and the Iraqi war.

But these anecdotes aside, from a national perspective, how good of a friend is France to America today? And if they aren’t a friend, what exactly are they? They certainly aren’t an enemy. Rival? Competitor? What?

-XT

2

Well, most of those people are unilateral isolationists (except for Iraq because Dear Leader told them so). In general, Europe (minus the UK) is… well, not “drawing away”, which I was going to say… they’re catching up to us, they’re getting bolder about saying “no, you’re wrong” since the Cold War ended. I don’t think it is the French being unfriendly to us, it is us being unfriendly to them because of disagreements. Basically, the people you mention (O’Reilly et al) would hate any country that made a peep against what the neocons want to do.

And I think they’re a bit afraid of Europe’s continuing trend toward unity and growing economic power. They’re a threat to Americe the Sole Superpower, which certain groups of Americans like the sound of. France, being the most vocal and one of the most influential politically and economically of the EU, is a big target.

3

To paraphrase Lord Palmerston, nations don’t have friends, they have interests. But, generally, Franco-American relations have been fairly decent, and remain fairly decent. They haven’t been perfect since the war, with France pulling out of Nato for a while, Suez, and them trying to make an independent foreign policy among the Francophone nations. More recently, of course, we’ve had difficulties over the death penalty, America’s pulling out of various international agreements, the Iraq war, and the growing power of the EU.

In spite of this, we still have pretty good relations, and cooperate more than we fight. Tradewise, France is in the top ten list of nations that the US trades with, both for exports and imports. Both of our nations have businesses with subsidiaries or affiliates in each other’s country. We engage in numerous cultural and scientific exchange programs, and France has sent troops to Afghanistan and is helping in the war on terror.

4

Am I the only person who found the OP to be slightly condescending? “Hey, those French aren’t genuflecting at our feet eagerly enough! How do we know they’re really friends of ours?”

Frankly, given how fast the United States have been pissing off allies and enemies alike in the last few years, I’m somewhat surprised the French haven’t written us off already.

5

From where i am sitting, being a good ‘friend’ to the US means absolutely sweet f.a. I have yet to see any reciprical benefit from our ‘special relationship’ ( as Blair likes to call it, although i think this is just an excuse to not say ‘no’ ), over and above the usuall.

All i see is a general disrespect for the rest of the peoples of this world, whinning about how crap the UN is while at the same time telling everyone how it would be nothing without the US etc. You dont make it easy to be friends from afar.

As for the French - i asked a similar ( shorter ) question several months back. ( http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=276906&page=1&pp=50)

The answers were interesting - i had no idea that you guys just thought they didnt thank you enough for WW2 (oh & didnt they occupy America for a while? ).

Personally, i like the French - but the Brits and French have a love / hate relationship - we have history together and like cats and dogs who have to share the same hearth rug ( where did that come from??? ) there is a good deal of respect. Certainly, there are many people who move to France from Britain to live.

As to what counties who are ‘friends’ behave like to eachother - i really dont know. Isnt the word just plain wrong to use? Seems far too local.

Ooh - i did just have a thought though:

The US used the French’s supposed refusal to agree to any iinvasion of Iraq ( although as we know it wasnt quite that simple ), as a reason to bypass the UN and go it alone - which it wanted to do anyway. Surely this is exactly what friends do - help eachother out of a tricky situation.

I reckon the French ( please anyone from France, come and tell me i’m talking crap !), are very protective of their culture. (They have every right to be- it rocks - great food, wine, diet, style, approach to life etc. ). The US culture is really quite hard to keep out, and it wouldnt suprise me if they try to keep you at arms length. I would !

And what Jake the Plummer said.

Sin

6

I asked a question…where was I condescending? Exactly WHERE did I say anything remotely like ‘Hey, those French aren’t genuflecting at our feet eagerly enough!’?? Show me where rjung…otherwise I might think you are on a fishing trip here…its kind of been your style.

Thanks everyone else for the replies. Its a question I’ve wanted to ask for opinions on for a while, but I wanted to wait until the real ill feelings, at least from the Amerians side, had died down somewhat to get a clearer answer.

-XT

7

Among educated types on the right, most of the justification for suspending habeas corpus & other dirty tactics in the “War on Terror” has been as follows: an appeal to the idea that civilized nations can disregard their own principles in a war against an alien culture (they stop short of saying “savages”) because after all, France has done it (in Algeria, earlier this century.

It’s a devious argument, based on the Eurocentric assumption that France, being in Western Europe, is unquestionably civilised. But France has no tradition of habeas corpus–that’s part of Anglo-American legal tradition (where it is considered a key right, & with reason). So what they are trying to do is make us more like France, & not in a good way like eating more fruit, but in the one most obnoxious way that French society is inferior, & a worse place to live.

OK, so when I try to point this out to the average dittohead, I get snide remarks about France, which in the new history created by GOP propaganda is supposedly our untrustworthy geopolitical rival at best, & “cheese-eating surrender monkeys” at worst. This is now a cliché, but has no basis nor root in history nor American national opinion prior, to, oh, the year 2002. (Can you say, “Ministry of Truth”?)

I suspect that the cultivation of anti-French sentiment was at least in part encouraged by those who want it to be unthinkable (in an Orwellian sense) that the U.S. is becoming more French, & in a bad way; & who don’t want some Frenchman who remembers how well the dirty tactics didn’t work in Algeria to have any of the credibility that should be his due.

8

Your best buddy sits down and dumps a glass full of gasoline into his lap, and reaches for a book of matches. You do your very best to slap the matches out of his hands. You’re not his friend? Aw goddam contrary!

9

The precedent isn’t really France in Algeria. The precedents are more, first, Britain (which, as you mentioned, has a tradition of habeas corpus) in Northern Ireland, and the US (again, habeas corpus) in the Civil War (when it was suspended).

10

I see it pretty muchl ike Capt. Amazing. We fight a lot, but agree much more often. The fights make better news stories.

11

People say things like this, but come on…do you really think France opposed the war because they were afraid the US would come out looking bad? Don’t be ridiculous, of course not.

International relations don’t work that way. I pretty much agree with Captain’s assessment.

12

Perhaps they opposed it because it was an ignorant, ill-conceived, counter-productive idea?

13

America’s “friend”? No, of course not.

That doesn’t make France America’s enemy, of course. It just means that we’re two very different countries with interest and values that don’t always coincide.

The French can be expected to pursue their own best interests and their own principles, like any nation. If those interests or principles run contrary to ours, well, too bad… but neither of us should back down for fear of offending the other.

My only problem with the French is that they’re often contrary for the hell of it! It’s one thing to turn East when the U.S. turns West because that seems like the better course, but the French have this irritating habit of opposing the U.S. and going a different direction SOLELY to be different from us!

14

Friendship has to be earned. We haven’t done much to earn anybody’s good will lately.

15

Was it Charles de Gaulle who said nations have no friends, only interests?

When has the US acted otherwise? And remember when Saddam was our friend? Maybe we have more to learn from adversaries, sometimes.

16

Not often enough, which is why we’ve got so much animosity pointed our way.

17

It’s interesting that America’s definition of “friends” tend to fit those nations who are too small to have anything other than a politically subservient, non-challenging relationship with it - Australia, New Zealand, etc… :confused:

18

You mean like the UK?

19

Zut, alors! Le idee du merde! C’est fuqued!

20

The French told you that you were wrong and making a big mistake, when…

You were wrong and making a big mistake.

What better friend could you ask for?