What is it with America and France?

Could someone explain to me why many Dopers from the US have a problem with the French. I am not really up on US / French history.

Which particular episodes in US / French relations lead to this niggling distrust?

French Dopers - what is your view on past and presant relations with the US?

Is it just Chirac you dislike?? The French people on the whole are very pleasant. Do many Americans class them as “cheese eating surrender…etc” or is it more of a joke thing - like the English and their “Scotsman and an Irishman walk into a bar…etc”.

I truly am interested.

Sin

Bollox - the 3rd para should go after the 4th.

Sorry.

Sin

I couldn’t give you much insight other than to point out that it goes back more than 200 years. Jefferson was branded as being a pawn of the French due to his time over there during his first presidential campaign.

Brits prior to WWII had a reputation as being a nation of egotists, convinced that Old Blighty could do anything better than anyone else. But they shared that national reputation with the French, and for fairly similar reasons.

Obviously, an essay on the causes of the American Revolution, and the reasons for French involvement in it, would be well beyond the limits of this thread. But suffice it to say that America as a nation came out of the Peace of Paris with a sense of lasting distaste for Great Britain and of camaraderie and gratitude for France.

However, the honeymoon did not last long. France appears to have deemed that since they helped pull America’s irons out of the fire in the Revolution, they could regard us as something of a protectorate – and that grated a people convinced that they had won their own freedom, with some French and other help. We ended up in an undeclared war with France in the late 1790s, then the War of 1812 as an element in the Napoleonic struggles.

The 1800s resulted in a slow shift from France and the U.K. as enemies, and the U.S. neutral-favorable toward the first and neutral-suspicious toward the second, to an alliance between them against Germany and others, and the U.S. tending toward cultural amity with both. This was strained by events ancillary to the U.S. Civil War, including British naval arrogance, Lord Palmerston’s haughty attitudes, and Napoleon III’s efforts to establish his brother-in-law as ruler of Mexico.

Then came WWI and U.S. entry into the war on the side of Britain and France, with the A.E.F. rallying cry of “Lafayette, we are here!” (Our troops fighting to free northern France from Germany was seen as long-delayed repayment of Lafayette’s efforts to aid us in the Revolution.)

Oddly enough, though, France did not show proper gratitude towards us, at least in our opinion, for that effort, continuing its own foreign policy which at times conflicted with ours. During the isolationist 20s and early 30s, that was no big deal, and the Depression sort of submerged any such attitudes in a common misery.

But then came the Anschluss, Munich, WWII, the blitzkriegs, the Fall of France, and once again we had to (in our view) save those silly Frenchmen from their own folly. And that was ended by DeGaulle, whom we and Britain had effectively set in power, insisting on his own foreign policy that did not match what the U.S. and U.K. jointly agreed was needed during the Cold War years.

And with that, the two-centuries-old sense of amity between the U.S. and France went down the tubes.

Now we blessed with the jingoistic, supercilious attitude we saw as so obnoxious on Britain and France back when, and purely insulted that France doesn’t clearly see that what Mr. Bush proposes is the right way to deal with things (obviously that “we” is Joe Republican-in-the-street asked about in the OP – I don’t propose to attempt to summarize the emotional reactions of liberal Democrats in this thread; it wasn’t asked for).

But that gives a short historical summary of American attitudes and perceptions, for what use it may be to others.

So why don’t they send the Statue of Liberty back?

[IMHO]
It is becoming an increasingly anachronistic symbol of America these days anyway.
[/IMHO]

Although you can certainly trace back difficulties between the two nations to the XYZ affair, I would say in modern times Degaulle’s decision to pull troops out of NATO was a major factor. Of course, the opposition to Bush’s war in Iraq hasn’t helped their image among some Americans either.

On a happier note, I think the days of “freedom fries” are past.

I doubt most Americans have an opinion on Chirac. As an American, I’d rather have Chirac for a leader than Bush.

Probably this will turn into an IMHO thread simply because you’re looking for the basis of opinions. Still, a good topic.

I’ve had the pleasure to tour the country a bit and even gain close acquaintance with 3 French nationals. With the exception of the bitch from Paris, I found them to reflect much of what I like about American culture (willing to eat a shit sandwich when necessary, blunt, open with opinions) and to be largely lacking the degree of provinciality that makes us so disgraceful. Sure, they seem pretty damned pleased to be French despite the fact that they were sorely besieged twice in 20 years (over half a century ago, by the way), and this is one point a lot of 'Merkins like to focus on when casting snipe, but take a look at our respective neighbors: As far as invasions we have to worry about Mexico :rolleyes: and Canada who just doesn’t seem to want to invade us. France on the other hand has always had to worry about Germany in one form or another who has proven a true battlefield contender as neighbors go. Really, if they have a record of surrender all that can really be said of Historical France is that she’s not suicidal. I’d say the *people * of France (excluding Paris) are OK, but the government just absolutely sucks.

But then, these are the conditions under which I live as well. I’d hate to be tarred a belligerent war mongerer or phillandering hick just because other nations might project the leadership style of a president upon the entirety of his constituency.

As far as historical factors I might point out that at least once in the relatively recent past (call it, concurrent with ours) France was a friggin’ empire. And prior to that France had been a *major * player in European politics and culture. The US by contrast, has only attained the *ability * of becoming an empire in the last 50 years or so, and has only become a major political & cultural influence in arguably more recent hestory. I’d sum up any disrespect for France as sophomoric and provincial attitude of a rising star toward, if not a “has been” then an entity that has burned quite hotly in the past and has learned temperence. I’ll stop short of saying we’re jealous of any nation that has a heritage of any kind that can be traced back to the brionze age.

Of course, what I said about their government…mmmmmm. :dubious:

To buttress what Polycarp said:

Much of the current resentment between France and the U.S. goes back to the aftermath of World War II, and French actions afterwards.

The loss to Germany, combined with the rising nationalist movements in French colonies, did a great deal to crumble French self-confidence in being a ‘world power’ as it had been before the war. To counter this, de Gaulle and his successors have did a fine job of manuevering in world politics during the Cold War to set themselves up as the leaders of the ‘third way’- somewhere between Communism and Capitalism. Needless to say, these manuevers- regarding NATO, the UN, foreign aid, the re-unification of Germany, the bombing of Libya, etc.- put France in direct opposition to the United States on many matters, which led to many hard feelings, and a general opinion that whatever the U.S. proposed, France would say ‘no’ just to say ‘no.’

Add in to this the cultural warfare: at least during the 1980’s, and possibly earlier, the rise of mass consumption of American consumer products in France became a very large issue in France- there was/is a feeling that the French national identity is under seige by global corporations, and that if the trend continued, French culture would be overwhelmed by the crass but cheap American culture. As a result, American movies were banned in many instances, public protests against large American corporations gained massive support (I forget the name of the farmer who became a national celebrity hero for throwing a chair through the front window of a McDonald’s in protest), etc. The general tone of this- to us Americans- was not “France is rallying to protect its culture” so much as “France is saying that American culture is disgusting and should be banned.”

As a result, the generalist impression that Americans have about France is: “We saved their asses from the Nazis in World War II, and now they call us disgusting boors, and are guaranteed to oppose anything we every do just to score political points.”

Yeah, and they smell funny.
:smiley:

Thanks for a excelent post PolyCarp. I realised there must be lots of history going on in the background - just didnt know what.

I must admit i was half expecting a few denials along the lines of “its a bit of a laff”, but i can see these are honest answers - thanks.

Sin

Good point Indy - if a mod wants to moove this to a IMHO thread, its cool with me.
Sin

I would say the French refusal to allow F-111 and EF-111 Ravens and their refueling tankers taking off in England to overfly the country enroute to bombin Khadafi in 1986 did nothing to endear the French to the US. (Spain also refused).

Plus they dress like mimes. Or mimes dress like the French. Either way, no good can come of it.

In the United Nations during the 2003-2004 session, France voted against the United States position on resolutions 46% of the time.

Good point from John Corrado about the “third way”. France is a politically diverse country, and its cold war stances were generally too ambiguous for the US : France had a pretty vocal and sometimes powerful pro-soviet communist party, and was also one of the (then) few nuclear powers.

As for the “culture wars”, France does seem to occasionally display something of a siege mentality with regard to both muslim immigration and US hegemony over the entertainment industries. There seems to be a fear that the national identity will be submerged in a tidal wave of Burkas and burgers…

This sounds like media spin though. Were you thinking of any specific incidents ? With the exception of the José Bové McDonalds blitz I’m not aware of anything like this. Maybe in the 70s ? We’re too busy desecrating cemeteries (just kidding, just kidding). I’ve been living in France for a number of years, and I’ve never heard of an American movie being banned.

It was another Scotsman who said it best “Bon’jour, ya cheese eat’n surrender monkeys!”

The day in 1917 (87 years ago) when the United States entered World War I, and then won it, is the day the United States became a major political influence in world affairs. Then there was the U.S. entry into World War II in both the Pacific and European theaters (63 years ago); our victory in both (59 years ago); followed by the Marshall Plan, which rebuilt Europe (57 years ago).

And because of his sympathy for the French Revolution, which many Americans of the time viewed as entirely too revolutionary even by American standards. It was the 18th-Century equivalent of labelling Jefferson a comsymp.

Walloon:

I’d say it happened about 13 (?) years earlier, when Teddy Roosevelt brokered a peace agreement in the Russo-Japanese war.

Actually, some of it is a bit of a laff, but probably not as much as, say, 10 years ago.

And this will probably end up in IMHO, since any responses are likely to be gross generalities; indeed, in matters such as this it is hard to put forth anything else. For instance, despite the “Joe-Republican-in-the-street” snipe earlier, my very much Republican brother-in-law is also very much pro-French, and despite the “surrender monkey” jokes, many of us still remember Verdun.

My niece who just returned from a trip to Europe – not that I’m a bit jealous that at age fifteen she has been to France, Italy, and Malta, whereas I, at age 43, haven’t even made to Ireland yet – enjoyed herself tremendously and liked the people she met. By all accounts, they in turn liked her, too.
FWIW,
RR

So, to speak to the OP:
Is there American hard feeling toward the French? You bet.
Is it real? Sometimes.
What’s it based on? The folks here have already given some very good answers.
How many Americans still consider the French allies? Probably most of them.
Do the French hate Americans? Beats me, but I’ll bet that some do and most don’t. I’ll also bet that most French have no use for the current U.S. administration.

Our current squabbles don’t bo back much further than DeGaulle’s withdrawl of troops from NATO. From the American point of view, that was an act of incredible ingratitude. From the French perspective, it was a sensible resistance to America’s tendancy to turn every minor foreign-relations issue into a Great Crusade. America holds an “If you’re not with us, you’re against us” attitude towards other nations, which is pretty alien (and alienating) to the French.

It’s wrong to take any of this personally, although the French crossed a line by cutting back-door oil deals with Saddam while the US was trying to get the Security Council to take significant action against him. It’s fine not to rubber-stamp our every wish into binding policy, but actively impeding our efforts is another matter entirely.