Defintely more for the French dopers here (all three of them).
So the Socialist party is organizing primaries to see who gets to be their candidate for the Presidential election. This is the second time they do this.
…And Jean-François Copé, the head of the French Conservative party (the U.M.P.), who less than a month ago was vomiting his bile on Socialists when they dared to growl against bordering antisemetic attacks being made by major figures of the UMP against Dominique Strauss Khan, the probable candidate for the left for the election. Well, that very same Copé is now attacking the Socialist primary process saying that “to have registration files for voters” (a necessity for setting up primaries) “reminds us all of the Darkest Hours of our history” ( a very clichéd sentence used in France to refer to the Occupation period).
The very same guy who didnt think that saying that “Strauss Khan doesnt represent the true roots of France” had any antisemitic connotations now think that having Socialist voters on files is akin to registering Jews before shipping them off to death camps.
WTF is this, more and more our Conservatives are behaving like American Conservatives, that is they consider anything and everything “from the other side” should be attacked on and on. There used to be a thing called consensus and, lets just say it, manners. Seems like the new UMP strategy is to shit all over the place, in the hope that Socialists might slip on it.
Are we becoming like those heathens across the Atlantic, that is it’s not a contest between political adversaries anymore but some kind of Holy War of civilization between political enemies?
I really dont know what the fuck is the UMP thinks it’s doing there. Any thoughts?
I am a conservative. Many of my friends are conservatives. I listen to the conservatives in Washington. I don’t see this phenomenon you’re talking about.
While it is a popular tactic for our political opponents to level these kinds of charges at us I have to say that we don’t ‘hate’ people who are ‘other’.
I really have no comment on what’s going on in France. Maybe they’re doing what you’re talking about, maybe not. But that is not what American conservatives are doing or want to do.
Ah yes. The “intolerant American conservatives” meme.
Funny, just this morning I was reading an article on Salon wherein the author expressed wonderment that she was capable of being friends with – gasp – a Republican. That while this person was a Fox-watcher and Palin-lover, she was indeed a true, good person
Those were just highlights from the first three pages. There are 17.
Now, please tell me again about how it’s a trait of “conservatives” and not, say, “people” to think “anything and everything “from the other side” should be attacked on and on.”
The thread opens with a mildly disguised rant and immediately descends into a pit of partisan flying brickbats.
Capitaine Zombie, if you want to debate a comparison of French and U.S. politics or French and U.S. political parties, start a new thread with a bit less heat and a lot more fact. You will next find this thread in The BBQ Pit.
I have to say as someone who comes from the same side of the Atlantic (though on the other side of La Manche) as Capitaine Zombie, and from the outside looking in, the American right has never looked/acted so crazy as it does now. Everything just seems so vitriolic and hateful, much of which seems to stem from barely concealed racism towards Obama.
I was coming back here after reading **(mostly) Harmless **'s post when it was the only post, for while it is my opinion of the Am Republicans, I could of course understand that it wouldnt be an universally shared one. So, I was actually coming back to ask for the move to BBQ Pitt.
I just didnt expect the bit of sanctimonious preaching. There’s nothing disguised here. What the fuck is a midly disguised rant that immediately becomes something else? If it’s *mildly disguised *it doesnt immediately turn into something else. I understand adjectives can really do wonders for a sentence, but usually more so when they have something to do with the subject, even remotely.
In other words, you posted a BBQ Pit rant in the wrong forum, and now you are ranting that I was not sufficiently nasty in pointing out that you posted the wrong garbage in the wrong place?
Whatever.
The impression I got from the OP was one of associating xenophobia with conservative politics. I think this is probably more valid in Western Europe than it is in the U.S. There are undoubtedly some xenophobic American conservatives, and, I daresay, some on the other side who have xenophobic tendencies despite being progressive in most other respects. When I read of French ultraconservatives like Le Pen, the xenophobia seems to be a core element of their world view. By contrast, with most of the American right wing, xenophobia/racism, if there, is only a side issue, or else it’s something which is passively stated, for example by the fact that most of the Tea Party brigade seem to be white.
Le Pen isnt ultra-conservative, he is far right. He isnt part of the French Conservatives, though his ideology is seeping into the French Conservatives’ rethorics more and more these days. Anyway the question wasnt about how outrageous American Conservatives behave, but why the fuck does the French Right suddenly think it’s a good strategy, and they should adopt it.
Well, he *is *conservative. In that he conserves the good old ideology from the Pétain days. You know, back when the brownies knew their place and whatnot.
As for why French neocons suddenly adopt xenophobic rethoric and the Big Lie: they’ve seen how well it works in the US. Have you seen just how many people buy that shit in America ? How far sheer Islamophobia can get you, how well accusing your enemy of your own sins works ? And since the French right is and has always been the party of “whatever works, damn the principles”…
I mean, what else do you think the Rom and burqua hullaballoos were about ? Know how many burqua’d women there are in France today ? Less than 500. Hell of a Problem, right ? Sure needs the heavy hand of the law and a widely publicized decision to sort that shit out.
Point is, that was just about courting FN voters. Used to be both sides of the Assembly shunned the fuckers. Now that they’re 15% of the (voting) public, weeeeell they’re just misunderstood aren’t they ? They’re not all bad, really…
I would argue that the conservative stand on immigration is largely influenced by xenophobia.
But be that as it may, I am far less interested in bickering about American politics which has been done to death on the dope, and more interested in the OP’s question about what is going on in France of which I know very little.
Please do. As I cannot rebut a statement I will wait for your argument.
In the meantime let me say that in the most general of terms anyone who uses race to make political arguments is misguided at best and a class-A shitbag at worst. It doesn’t matter if it’s spoken by Americans, French, or fucking Martians. Now I know that most people already agree with that sentiment but I felt it necessary to say because when you are on the right you learn very quickly that, much to your surprise, everything you say is racist. You, furthermore, learn that if you are white then by definition you hate everyone who has darker skin than you. These kinds of revelations lead us to feel the need to make disclaimers from time to time.
So in reference to the OP I will say this: If French politicians are doing what you say, then they are wrong to do so. But it is not necessary to bring Americans into this especially when it involves mis-characterizing their intentions. How could you possibly know the motives of an American Conservative unless you are one?
Are you fucking joking me? You have to be an American Conservative to talk about them or have an opinion on them?! By the way, the question was exactly what is the reasoning the French right is having here? So, it was, from the start, a question about the motives, what I was describing is the behavior. And if you cant see how incredibly antagonistic American Conservatives have been for a few years now, I cant miraculously correct eyesight through the internet. It’s pretty clear that in both the cases of France and the US, I am talking about the politicians, not the voters.
And the point wasnt that the French right has been tapping into the Front National’s ideological cesspool, but that the head of the French equivalent of the Conservatives is comparing the Socialists with the Nazis just because they plan on using some kind of voter files to set up their primaries. That coming from a guy who thought the French Socialists were disgusting to see antisemitism in any way in an attack on Strauss Khan’s unFrenchness. Sorry, but that reminds me exactly of what the Republicans have been doing ever since Obama became President (“he’s a Socialist”, “he’s Kenyan”, and on and on). That kind of attack was (and I hope, still is) considered totally out of place in French politics. And any French citizen would see it as a totally transparent bad faith attack, sullying way more the attacker than its intended target.
Apparently, some people in the UMP thought basic ethics and manners are a loosing strategy. I was wondering how that thought could ever have formed in their mind, or how could they think no one will call their bullshit out.