Are there any religious people who aren't happy about it?

Great Debates
1

I wasn’t really sure where this would go…so i’m dumping it in GD, and I won’t start a Pit thread if it gets moved or anything.

I’m talking about people who have certain beliefs, in which they are convinced, but are not happy about it. I was wondering because I was thinking about how many athiests (on this board and otherwise) have said at times that they would probably prefer a system with a Deity, but that they do not believe in it (yes, I know, a most atheists are happy without one). Basically, you’ve got -

  • Athiests who are happy with that - they don’t want a deity or religion, and they believe it is not the case, so they’re good.

  • Athists who are not happy with that - they don’t believe there are any deities and so on, but think that it might be better if there were - nevertheless, they believe that there isn’t.

  • Theists who are happy with that - they believe in a deity, and they like that.

  • Theists who are not happy - they believe in a deity, but they would prefer that the deity does not exist.

Are there any people who fit into that last category? I don’t mean religious people who have specific problems with that religion - a Jew who feels annoyed that they can only eat kosher, for example, wouldn’t count because while they have a specific problem, overall, they’re happy with their God. If that person though had such a large problem, or a large amount of smaller ones, that led them to (overall) not liking of their deity, that’d count.

I’m asking because it occurred to me I couldn’t think of any people - I don’t know any religious people who, overall, aren’t happy with that. There are of course people who are displeased (for some reason, be it contradictions in their faith, or problems with their church/faith leaders) with their religion, but they either tend to disbelieve in that deity, or have changed beliefs that “leave out” the parts they do not like. I don’t know of anyone who still believes in a Deity that they do not like or agree with, overall.

I’m asking because it occurred to me that if there are no such people, then surely it would be evidence against religion being “true”? If all religious people agree and are happy with their religion (overall) and deity/deities then it would be understandable to say that religion is quite possibly merely created by the people, rather than by a god - the logic being that, surely some people would be unhappy with a deity, given that people are so different? I’m aware it would not be “Aha! People are all happy with their gods, so they MUST be people-created!”-style evidence, but more along the lines of circumstantial evidence.

Thoughts?

2

I’ve fallen under the last category before. The idea of a god who would create a world where such grotesque evil is possible is not a god I’d want to be alone with or to worship/follow. No matter what theism I look at I can’t make sense of a powerful creator god that is also a god that is worthy of being followed and listened to. I don’t understand how all the monotheists who believe in hell can feel comfortable with that.

Martin Luther, founder of the catholic reformation, believed in predestination. In his eyes millions/billions of humans were predestined to spend eternity in hell from the instant they were born and nothing anybody could do could change that. I remember him saying he said he struggled with that issue in his life, trying to make sense of how God could do that. His conclusion was something like ‘God’s justice is not man’s justice’. Essentially meaning god is evil by human standards.

3

There seems to be a long history in Christianity of the believer who struggles against a crushing sense of his own unworthiness and sinfulness; simply believing in God is no guarantee of happiness if you believe that God is stern and just and wrathful and that you yourself are a miserable wretched loathsome sinner.

There is also the “atheist” who is “mad at God”–he left the Church after his entire family were eaten by wild dogs or whatever, but at least emotionally still seems to believe in God, only now he’s really pissed off at him–a very popular type in fiction, but there are probably also real life examples.

4

Are there any religious people who aren’t happy about it?
Sure there are. They haven’t resolved the dilema of good and evil.
Lucifer, an angel, was thrown out of “heaven” because of pride.
In the form of a serpent deceived Eve, and she Adam.
As a result they were cast out of Eden, lest they eat of the tree of life and live forever.
Since then mankind has struggled with resolving the confiict within himself.
Some consider themselves to be gods, or above such,to them, nonsense.
Others beleive in the eternalality of Jehovah God Almighty and stive daily to be subservient to him.

So you say that is all philosophical/theological nonsense and so much throwing dust in the air to no avail.

5

I definitely come into your fourth category.

I would like nothing more than to be convinced of the truth of atheism. I would be a much happier and self-fulfilled person if I could know that there is no God, no afterlife, if nothing I do matters in the long run. But I can’t.

There is a poem which I’m sure many of us are familiar with - “The Hound Of Heaven” by Francis Thompson.

“I fled Him, down the nights and down the days;
I fled Him, down the arches of the years;
I fled Him, down the labyrinthine ways
Of my own mind; and in the mist of tears
I hid from Him, and under running laughter.”

That describes my relationship with God perfectly.

6

The other side is the belief in an all loving god that will accept everyone unconditionally.
Most of what is publically proclaimed in regard to salvation is NOT to be found anywhere in Holy writ.
The N.T. reality is that salvation is extended to all who will turn away, repent, of past sins, be immersed in water for the remission/forgiveness of past sins. They arise out of the water, a new creature, “resurected” from the ‘watery grave’ to live a new life.

7

I don’t understand what you meant by your last line.

But Lucifer would be a perfect example of someone i’d put in the fourth category - a character who believes in a deity (and within the story of the bible, probably met the guy) and isn’t happy about that state of affairs.

8

I knew a few devout christians who were convinced they were going to hell.

9

Now you do.

10

This is basically the logic by which I can’t understand monotheism. :wink: