"The herbivore, carnivore and omnivore diet classifications is a classification based on what diet an animal generally have, not what it couldhave. Neither does it reflect evolutionary relationships, even though they might correlate in some instances.
A clear example how this is true is that you’ll find carnivores that are cats, fungi, worms and even plants."
“…frugivores are basically omnivores. Frugivores are usually used as a term for omnivores that feed on fruit. Most frugivores do not eat exclusively fruit. Anyway, orangutans are usually referred to as frugivorous. Take a look at this orangutan skeleton and look at those canines. Just as a contrast for that – cherry picked – image representing all frugivores.”
Yes, my doctor pointed out that a vegetarian diet is not necessarily healthier because French fries, pizza without meat and ice cream are all vegetarian.
I doubt they’re any more sickly or malnourished than anyone else, especially considering how obesity is crippling the US. It’s possible to get obese on a strict vegan diet, but highly unlikely.
I’m far from vegan (I adore eating meat), but I don’t see why anyone eating that sort of diet would be worse off than anyone else. Take a vitamin if you feel the need to, or eat foods that are high in protein like beans (and I think some greens are, too?)
Humans cannot survive on a pure vegan diet. There is no vegetable source for B12. End of story.
Now whether a vegan diet supplemented with B12 is healthier than, say, a vegetarian diet, is a different question. A friend of mine is vegetarian but eats fish, milk, eggs, and seems very healthy for it. Not so his wife who is anemic and suffers constant nausea. Is this related to the lack of meat? Probably not but who knows. Incidentally a seder plate with a celery stalk replacing a lamb shank is pretty bizarre, but that’s they have.
I’m pretty sure I heard somewhere*, that for most people the healthiest diet is one that’s mainly plant based, but with a little bit of meat. In other words, way less meat than that the typical American eats, but don’t eliminate it altogether. If I remember correctly the recommendation was to eat meat maybe one meal per week, and vegetarian/vegan meals the rest of the time.
*Sorry, I don’t remember where, so I can’t come up with a cite. Possibly it was from the author of The Omnivore’s Dilemma; I haven’t read the book but I’ve heard him interviewed.
Yes, that’s it. By eating right, Omnivores and Vegetarians are just as healthy as Vegans. Mind you for us meat eaters, that means not eating processed meats and eating less meat. No bacon, no sausage, no pre-packaged lunch meat, etc. No fast food. But yeah, that 16oz rib steak is fine- once a week.
However, most omnivores dont watch what they eat, they are on the old “see-food diet”.
One of my coworkers was a vegan, but he ate lots of tropical oils, potato chips, cookies, that meat subst stuff and whatnot- and he was gaining weight and not healthy.
So remember- macadamia nuts are vegan, potato chips are vegan, most cookies are vegan, most candy is vegan. Make your diet mostly those, and no, you wont be healthy.
Let’s compare a meal: 4oz lean steak, steamed broccoli, baked potato with butter
Vs Impossible Burger, Amy’s Kitchen Chinese Noodles & Veggies With Cashew Cream Sauce,Daiya Cheddar-Style Deluxe Cheeze Sauce.
:rolleyes: You dont eat potato chips, french fries, candy, chocolate, cookies, nuts, etc? All vegan, all taste good, all bad for you.
(well, a limited amount of chocolate and nuts is fine)
I said the stuff tastes good, not that it’s necessarily healthy. Hemlock is organic. BTW my daughter was vegan till she met the CIA chef. Love changes everything.
‘Yes we are’ and ‘no they just think they are’ don’t seem backed by much when mentioned. But even if a ‘study’ were cited, very hard to disambiguate causality in such cases. If you change your diet aiming to improve your health, you’re somebody conscious about health. If you eat as much as you want of whatever you feel like eating, you’re not. And the latter is going to tend to be non-vegan/vegetarian, call it vegX, in the mainstream culture of US and most Western rich countries, what we’re usually talking about here it seems.
My private non-scientific opinion would be as somebody mentioned earlier: we’ve evolved as meat eaters and it would be really surprising that cutting out it 100% improves the average person’s health, all else equal, much less cutting out diary, eggs, fish etc. That’s not going to be disproved by including in a study people who live obviously unhealthily in diet and exercise, who probably tend to include fewer vegX’ers. I highly doubt though that high exercise health conscious moderate (and healthier type) meat eaters are at a disadvantage to a vegX in life expectancy or length of healthy life.
I think it’s pretty clear that a vegan diet is truly healthier:
There appear to be potential vitamin deficiencies, but that is easily remedied with vitamin supplements.
For me, the most compelling evidence is the number of high level athletes who are moving to plant-based diets.
As noted by others, a general statement that ‘vegan diets are, in all cases, healthier than a balanced diet that includes meat’ cannot be made. However, as the article I linked to says, there are numerous deficiencies associated with meat eating that are avoided by a vegan diet and, aside from possibly calcium, iron and B12, no proven downsides associated with a vegan diet.
Also, a vegan diet eliminates animal cruelty and does a great deal to combat climate change.
All that said, I have two vegetarians in my life and they are both quite overweight as they eat tons of candy, pasta, pastry and soda, which are all vegetarian. So, it’s an imperfect system.
Yeah, the best study I can think of to do is to have a population of people who are vegetarian/vegan and a population of people who eat meat, and put them on diets that are very similar in calories and the nutrients that they ultimately get out of food, so that the primary difference IS whether the nutrients come from including meat, or from plants exclusively. Tracking other habits would also be important, since a sedentary vegan/vegetarian can’t be reasonably compared to someone who exercises regularly, even if their diets are controlled to be similar. The obvious problem is that it tends to be difficult to keep people to a strictly monitored and controlled diet for the years it would take to get good long-term results. You’d need to start with a LOT of people to have a sufficiently large sample size at the end, because so many would drop out. And successfully controlling and monitoring their diets is likely to be difficult and expensive.
I don’t believe vegans are healthier because they’re vegan.
Many vegans are concerned for their health and would live longer than other people. It’s not necessarily because they’re vegan, but because they avoid processed food and overcooked red meat. People who live in Japan (who often eat fish, even raw) live a long time too. So do people on the Mediterranean diet, which doesn’t have much meat in it but is definitely not a vegan diet!
Vegans run a greater risk of nutritional deficiencies than omnivores. But some vegans remain healthy. This is because nutrition is more complex than many vegans claim.
For instance, vegans don’t consume vitamin A (because that’s an animal product). They consume beta-carotene. The human body converts that into vitamin A. Some of it. And some people are really bad at this (mutations in the enzymes). Such people, if they become vegan, will either get sick or have to take (animal-sourced) vitamins.
There are few reliable vegan sources for B12. I heard that it’s a “different from” and doesn’t convert 100%, but I don’t know if that’s true. What I do know are most vegan sources (eg algae, mushrooms) contain only small amounts, and if you aren’t eating a vegan-sourced supplement you will probably suffer a deficiency. A B12 deficiency is really serious. I suspect it’s literally the illness that causes most vegans to stop being vegans. The worst part about this? I’ve heard vegans tell other vegans not to go to the doctor because “doctors don’t really understand nutrition” or “you don’t need that much B12”. While family doctors don’t take many courses in nutrition, they can read blood test results, while random vegan “doctor” on the internet does not have your blood test results. The black-and-white thinking is very dangerous here.
Some omnivores suffer deficiencies, because B12 requires a specialized absorption protein (risk of mutation) and requires an acidic stomach (if your stomach pH is high, you won’t absorb enough of it). Many omnivore seniors suffer from this deficiency. It’s not simply a matter of “eating stuff with B12 in it”.
“Organic” iron comes in two forms, heme and non-heme. Heme iron is found in myoglobin (dark muscle tissue) and blood. Non-heme iron is found in any iron-rich food (including meat, where 50-67% or so of the iron is non-heme). Both are absorbed in different ways (creating an opportunity for a mutation). Non-heme iron must be converted to heme iron (and again, opportunity for mutation in the enzymes). Some vegans don’t suffer iron deficiencies, and some don’t convert properly and suffer from low energy (especially if they’re female and menstruating).
Making matters worse, certain plant chemicals inhibit iron absorption (such as oxalates). Liam Hemsworth (Thor) was a vegan, but had to stop because oxalates also increase the likelihood of kidney stones, which he ended up suffering from. Oxalates are common in spinach, an iron-rich food, so it’s not really helping. Vitamin C helps with iron absorption and there are vegan foods that contain non-heme iron and vitamin C. However, a vegan has to do actual research to know which these foods are, and if they have a problem with non-heme iron it will not help.
The Impossible Burger contains heme iron, from genetically modified yeast (using animal DNA). Purists might not like that idea. Also, that’s processed food. A lot of “fake meat” and the like is processed, and might be as unhealthy as processed meta (eg the burgers that replaces).
Another area where vegans sometimes fail to do the research is protein-rich plant milk. From what I gather, soy milk has an equal protein content to cow’s milk. Almond milk contains far less. Furthermore some of the milk is enriched with vitamin B12, and some is not. So… vegans need to do their research. I was upset when I read about a “Black Hebrew” cult in Israel that is also vegan. They insist on feeding their infants dilute soy milk with no additives, so quite a few of these infants end up in the hospital, and some die from B12 deficiency.
Unfortunately veganism has a lot of pseudoscience in it. They need explanations for why some vegans get sick. Often it’s “they weren’t trying hard enough” or “their doctor is part of the Big Meat Conspiracy” which is… not rational.
I think there’s something to be said for eating less processed food and even eating less meat, but we’re omnivores and we all have different genetic profiles. The claim that “everyone can be a vegan” is untrue. I also don’t believe the exaggerated claims that cattle are causing a lot of climate damage. Methane has a greater effect than carbon dioxide but it doesn’t last nearly as long, plus the “cure” would be to cull a lot of cattle.
Actually, if we all ate just a* little* meat, that would be fine as far as climate change, likely even better. Many animals can be fed on silage, waste, etc.
You know, I’d be very happy if the world ate as little meat as could be produced from the waste from plant cultivation, but we all know that this is utopian.
