Ok, an example of Vegan hypocracy. Breast/mothers milk is GOOD, cow milk is BAD.
Ok, but people are animals, right? thus breastmilk is an animal product, right? So, why is breastmilk GOOD & cow milk BAD? I have also heard of vegans eating the afterbirth, as the “only OK meat”. Why?
I have also heard of vegans eating the afterbirth,
*mmmmmm…cannibilism in suburbia…the other white meat. *
And its been couped up in a tiny living space for 9 months , so it tastes just like veal!
Daniel, I believe the point of the vegans’ objection to cows’ milk is, first, that it comes from an animal that is “held prisoner” and “exploited” by humans who “steal” its milk, and second, that while the cow is producing milk for humans, it is being fed really quite enormous amounts of plant food, like hay and corn, that could otherwise be eaten directly by humans, thus saving a step. Yes, I realize that people can’t eat hay, but the objection to obtaining milk from cows for humans to consume by feeding hay to those cows is that resources such as tractors, diesel fuel, fertilizer, transportation costs, etc. are used up in growing, harvesting, transporting, and marketing the hay, resources that society might put to better use elsewhere.
A human mother is going to be eating what she’s going to eat anyway, just to keep herself from falling down and starving to death, and the production of milk from her breasts is just kind of a side-benefit. She doesn’t have to consume any more of society’s resources in order to produce that milk.
Also, nobody “captured” her and forced her to produce milk for an “alien” species, milk which was intended for the nourishment of her own young.
IMHO, the statement that “vegans eat the afterbirth” verges perilously close to being an Urban Legend, akin to the “Jews eat Christian babies during their unholy rituals” UL from the Dark Ages. And what’s our official policy around here on Urban Legends, hmm? “Prove it–or remove it.”
Well, huh. Color me surprised. All the while I’ve been reading this whole thread, a little voice in the back of my mind, left over from a misspent youth in the 70’s, kept whispering, “But what about miso? What about soy sauce, the real stuff, not that ersatz La Choy stuff? What about tofu?”
Back in the 60’s and 70’s, a lot of people got involved in a diet known loosely as macrobiotics. As interpreted by 95% of the people who tried it, it involved eating strictly plant products, not a smidgen of dairy products or eggs. The result was that a lot of people got sick, and finally everybody figured out why–it’s because you need that Vitamin B12 that’s only found in animal products.
“But wait!” cried its most serious proponents. “Your problem is that you’re not following the instructions. You’re supposed to be including miso, which is fermented bean paste, and soy sauce, the real thing, and all the different kinds of soy sauce, tamari and so forth, not that ersatz La Choy stuff. You can’t just go home and start eating only fruits and vegetables.”
These special items, we were told, would supply the missing B12, as the process of fermentation was supposed to change the chemical composition of the soybeans. “Look at the Chinese and the Japanese,” we were told. “They’ve been eating this diet for hundreds of years, and they aren’t any sicker than anybody else. As long as you include fermented soy products, you’ll be OK.”
The problem was that, at the time, those exotic ingredients were not readily available outside the major metropolitan areas, so people who experimented with macrobiotics in Peoria and Bismarck got sick. (Oh, no, now I’ll get flamed, “what do you mean, we aren’t a major metropolitan area?!” Pax. Please.)
(And I’d like to clarify, in passing, that what people got sick with was anemia, not kwashiorkor. I had to go look it up in the Encyclopedia Britannica just to be sure, because I didn’t remember myself. “Kwashiorkor is a protein-deficiency disease common in Africa and other Third World nations that rely on a starchy, low-protein diet.” I think part of the problem in this thread is that Otto is talking about protein deficiency, whereas Daniel is actually meaning to talk about B12 deficiency, but has it confused with protein deficiency. So no wonder.)
So anyway, this was all still stuck in my mind, and I went looking on the Web, sure I’d find a website somewhere that would have facts and figures, outlining exactly how to raise a kid on a macrobiotic diet. No soap. I found the macrobiotics official website (www.macrobiotics.org), which, down at the bottom, includes fish and seafood. I found the offical Miso and Tofu Homepage (www.tofu.com), which was an ad for the two books by William Shurtleff. Now THERE’S a blast from the past…
So evidently miso and tofu haven’t been mainstreamed after all. Huh. Maybe I just remembered it wrong all these years. Is that a warning sign of Alzheimers?
So to see what the mainstream says, I looked at a lot of serious vegetarian pages, and in the Merck Manual, and on about.com’s Health/Nutrition site, and everybody in the mainstream agrees–either give the kid animal protein of some kind, or fortified soy milk that has had B12 added, or vitamin supplements of some kind.
And now that I think about it, I do remember a factoid sailing past at one point, to the effect that the reason the Chinese and Japanese never suffered from B12 anemia was that their rice was harvested and stored so inefficiently that it was thoroughly contaminated by insects, whose dead body parts then supplied the miniscule amounts of B12 required. At the time, I of course chalked it up to simple racism. “Oh, come on, you guys…”
I do think we need to clarify the terms we’re using. Vegetarian means (or ought to mean for purposes of discussion) someone who only eats plant products, like fruits and vegetables and nuts and seeds. Lacto-ovo vegetarian means somebody who eats eggs and dairy products, as well as fruits and vegetables and nuts and seeds. Vegan, I dunno WHAT it is. Is it just another word for “vegetarian” (see above)? It seems to have a lot of baggage attached to it, the connotation somehow of “rabid vegetarian” or “super vegetarian”. And, once and for all, please, is it “Vej-an” or “Vehg-an” or “Vayg-an”? I really wanna know.
Daniel–maybe the reason your web search for “vegan” didn’t turn up much is because it’s still a relatively new slang term.
For the record, bacteria does not turn soy milk into tofu–it is a simple chemical reaction between the soy milk and the calcium chloride or magnesium chloride (i.e. gypsum) that’s added to it. The soy milk just coagulates into a cheesy substance. You are probably thinking of yogurt, which IS made by bacteria. Or maybe you’re thinking of miso and soy sauce, in which the bacteria of fermentation turn soybeans into other things. (Tofu is not fermented.)
Textured Vegetable Protein, or TVP, is made out of soybeans and is not fermented. The beans are simply cooked and pushed through an extruder, with or without flavorings. TVP, then, does not supply vitamin B12.
FYI: Mothers who breast-feed their children past the age of about 2 or so are generally doing it not for nutrition, but for comfort. It’s very comforting to a small child to be able to run over to Mommy for a drink of milk every so often, and also at bedtime. However, because an active 2 or 3-year-old simply can’t get enough calories just from breast milk, they are always fed other food, too–that’s how babies in every culture learn to eat “people food.” The !Kung bushmen of the Kalahari, who are the favorite examples of both the La Leche League and the anthropologists, nurse their children for 3 years, yes, but the kid also eats more or less what everybody else eats.
I am not aware of any breast-feeding authorities advocating nursing a child until he’s 5 years old. Geez.
I did not see anything in my wanderings on the subject of blue-green algae containing B12. Blue-green algae is a plant, anyway, isn’t it? Maybe we should reconvene over at the “then there were FIVE?” thread in General Questions.
Otto, after all this research I’ve done, I’m fascinated by your little bottle that lists plant sources for B12. Isn’t it possible that for the purposes of advertising copy, the manufacturer is stretching a legal definition there, perhaps skating on thin ice with the FDA? I seem to recall that if they label something a “nutraceutical” or a “food supplement”, it’s exempt from some of the FDA’s regulations. Just wondering, not hostile, don’t jump all over me…
Re the issue of vegans eating tiny microscopic animals, or even bugs and mites–no, I don’t even want to get into that. Sheesh.
Even if it is the OP. Double sheesh.
And whatever happened to the person who started this thread? MC? Where’d’e’go?
Re the label on Otto’s little bottle: Maybe it’s just that no one’s ever called them on it, so they get away with it.
Wow - Great post, Notthemama. Thanks.
Your Quadell
Oh give me a break. You just are so bloody determined to find them “hypocrites”, no matter what. Someone else has answered your question far better on this specific question than I, so I won’t respond to it. But - sheesh, kid, you just won’t let it go.
Quadrell (sp?) is right - people do wait in line, looking intently to catch a veggie slip, and then be quick to holler “hypocrite”! It’s because they don’t want to make that difficult stand themselves, and derive pleasure or satisfaction in poking holes in someone else who is putting in the effort, and pointing fingers. “Aha! Caught you this time!” What a mentality.
Yes, some veggies are hypocrites. The worst are the ones who go around looking down their noses at others and preaching or nagging. Sure, there are those kind. But there is also the kind that is just doing the best to adhere to a difficult diet choice. Sometimes they slip, but they really are trying. So why be so bugged by them? Why wait around, hoping to find something about them to gleefully say “Aha!” about? Sheesh.
Uh, sorry if this last post is a little incoherent, I am about to rush off to catch a plane! Gotta flyyyyy…
I seem to recall reading recently that spirulina (algae) was being touted as a non-animal source of B-12, but it was found that the type it contained wasn’t usable by humans. I’ll go see if I can find the source.
I think that vegan has become a common term now. Possibly because “lacto-ovo-vegetarian” is such an awkward term that those people have taken to just calling themselves vegetarian.
NOTTHEMAMA: Thank you, great post. You are right, i meant miso, not tofu. The soy fermenting bacteria are a good source of B12, not a vegetable source, but not an animal source either. Vegans can get enough B12 if the supplement or use miso, etc.
Spirulina/Blue-green-algae is not a true plant, usually consigned to the “protista”. There was a brief note on it in Consumer reports a few years ago, as to it beeinga good source of protein & B12, but an extremely expensive source, not recommended.
Yes, I did mean kwashnikour. I had 2 threads going, 1. No vegetable source of B12, & 2. Kids stomachs are too small to eat enough protien on a vegan diet… Perhaps I mixed them up too much. OTTO did show that with NON-traditional sources of vegan protein, kids can get enough, so I was out of date on that. I still say you should watch your kids vegan diet carefully to make sure there is enough protein, & use some of the sources OTTO so kindly recommended. Watch for signs of Kwashnikour, this condition was very rare in America until a few years ago.
Yes, I have heard about the arguements about dairy cows being mistreated & “imprisoned”, and thus it is unethical to use the products from them. I agree many modern dairys are sterile souless places, no fun for the cows at all. BUT, there are also several organic dairies, where the cows are pampered & well treated, so what is wrong with the milk from those cows? Even more strictly, I know many vegans have pets. If you can have a cat as a friend & a partner ( as mine are), why not a cow or a nanny goat? Then why not use her milk? That animal is not imprisoned or mistreated. A goat will also happily eat grass & weeds, plants not usuable for Humans. In general, dairy animals are not fed a lot of plant material that is usuable by humans. Ruminants can digest cellulose, & we can’t so why waste it? ( yes, I know full well that feedlots use a lot of corn to fatten up beef cattle, but we are not talking about beef cattle, we are talking about dairy cows, especially those raised organically). We are not wasting food by processing it thru cows to get milk, just the opposite.
NOTTHEMAMA: Thank you, great post. You are right, i meant miso, not tofu. The soy fermenting bacteria are a good source of B12, not a vegetable source, but not an animal source either. Vegans can get enough B12 if the supplement or use miso, etc.
Spirulina/Blue-green-algae is not a true plant, usually consigned to the “protista”. There was a brief note on it in Consumer reports a few years ago, as to it beeinga good source of protein & B12, but an extremely expensive source, not recommended.
Yes, I did mean kwashnikour. I had 2 threads going, 1. No vegetable source of B12, & 2. Kids stomachs are too small to eat enough protien on a vegan diet… Perhaps I mixed them up too much. OTTO did show that with NON-traditional sources of vegan protein, kids can get enough, so I was out of date on that. I still say you should watch your kids vegan diet carefully to make sure there is enough protein, & use some of the sources OTTO so kindly recommended. Watch for signs of Kwashnikour, this condition was very rare in America until a few years ago.
Yes, I have heard about the arguements about dairy cows being mistreated & “imprisoned”, and thus it is unethical to use the products from them. I agree many modern dairys are sterile souless places, no fun for the cows at all. BUT, there are also several organic dairies, where the cows are pampered & well treated, so what is wrong with the milk from those cows? Even more strictly, I know many vegans have pets. If you can have a cat as a friend & a partner ( as mine are), why not a cow or a nanny goat? Then why not use her milk? That animal is not imprisoned or mistreated. A goat will also happily eat grass & weeds, plants not usuable for Humans. In general, dairy animals are not fed a lot of plant material that is usuable by humans. Ruminants can digest cellulose, & we can’t so why waste it? ( yes, I know full well that feedlots use a lot of corn to fatten up beef cattle, but we are not talking about beef cattle, we are talking about dairy cows, especially those raised organically). We are not wasting food by processing it thru cows to get milk, just the opposite.
Cecil Adams on “placenta stew”: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_104.html
You are of course aware that cows and goats must be kept pregnant pretty much all the time in order to keep producing milk, right?
Many folks who support animal rights do not believe that slavery is ever justified.
-andros-
Daniel, I tend to be a very mainstream person, so to be truly happy I’m going to need to see some kind of citations to support the following statements that you made:
Re miso: “The soy fermenting bacteria are a good source of B12, not a vegetable source, but not an animal source either. Vegans can get enough B12 if the supplement or use miso, etc.”
Are you saying that the bacteria that ferment the soybeans count as “animal”? 
Also, I need to see a source for your assertion that miso provides B12, because I sure didn’t see any mention of it on the web (admittedly, I surfed in some haste.) I am always happy to be enlightened.
You also said:
“Spirulina/Blue-green-algae…There was a brief note on it in Consumer reports a few years ago, as to it beeinga good source of protein & B12, but an extremely expensive source, not recommended.”
Do you have the reference to this? Post it, woudja?
Doesn’t the Consumer Reports reference, if true, negate the point I thought that you (and I) were making about there being no plant sources for B12?
Also, are you saying that since spirulina isn’t a “plant”, it counts as being a possible “non-plant” source for B-12? Do we need to stop for a minute and define what we mean by the word “animal”?
I would like to see a citation for kwashiorkor being on the rise in America. Are you saying that, if it’s true, vegetarians are to blame?
Tracer: thanks for the placenta link. I don’t normally resort to profanity but–Holy Anointed One on a support typically fitting under the armpit for use by the disabled in walking! (insert smilie for extreme gross-out here) I know I’m “always happy to be enlightened”, but really…Some things it’s better not to know. :rolleyes:
NOTTHEMAMA: apprently you did not read my post carefully, or maybe I did not explain myself well. There are 3 groups of living things:Animal, Plants & Protista.* Protista is the group that include ameoba, bacteria, & blue/green algae. No plant is a source of B12. However, bacteria (protista) will ferment stuff like soy, and thus produce b12.
So, there are NO plant sources of B12, But not all the sources of B12 are animals. I assume that while Vegan means no animal source, they do not consider protista at all.
*Some systems break down the protista more, and remove the fungi from plant kingdom, which makes sense.
**
So, what’s the problem? The treatment of animals in the production of food? Sure, it’s harsh. But how harsh is it for antelope to be killed by a lion?**
Probably a lot less harsh and unhealthy than some-odd thousand chickens smashed into one factory in wire cages.
After all, that was a free-range antelope. (rimshot)
**
If you find the mass production of animals for food wrong **
Which I don’t. As long as it doesn’t cause a higher amount of disease and lack of health in the animals produced (e.g., bovine spongiform encephalitis cos they feed ground-up brains to cows). Hell, the only reason I wouldn’t eat Soylent Green is because you wouldn’t know the condition of the person you were eating.
I did jury duty one time and when we were in deliberations, we had to send out to the comissary for lunch. I saw “spirulina” on the menu and decided I’d try it.
It looked like pond scum. And tasted like bananas. (I guess it had bananas blended in.) I haven’t had any since, though. Kinda hard to find.
Feel free to correct me at any time. But don’t be surprised if I try to correct you.
JAB: Spirulina (aka blue-green algae) looked like pond scum because that is exactly what it is…
(must resist temptation here to give cheap shot to those who have been BBQing me… must resist…)
Well, Scully, I’ll admit that I wouldn’t want to be a chicken raised to be a dinner, but here’s the next philosophical point: Ideally, a chicken producer would want his birds raised in as beneficial environment as possible. This would maximize the growth of the birds. Of course this environment also has to be cheap as possible in order to make a profit.
If you’re a chicken (or whatever) producer, you need to produce a marketable product as quickly and as cheaply as possible. Harsh conditions are not conductive to maximal growth-it costs a lot of money to feed these birds. The idea is to get them to market size as quickly as possible.
Of course the cheapness factor comes in to play. Would anybody pay over $10 or more a pound for chickens raised on, say, a golf course?
Farmed raised chickens have it pretty easy, so to speak, they’re being fattened up for the kill. Food ab libitum as opposed to spending a lot of their metabolic energy finding food. That metabolic energy goes to growth.
The birds are killed quickly when butchered (usually decapitation). What about the antelope that is suffocated by the lion? Instead of instantaneous death, the kill of a lion suffers for minutes. Both types of animals are ending up as food. If lions could hunt in a pen of antelopes, I think they would.
My point was that if you had to spend most of your waking hours acquiring food, you probably wouldn’t have time to post on this MB.
Is the debate the treatment of animals or their nutritional value?
Daniel, I still need to see some kind of proof that the bacteria which ferment soy into miso also produce Vitamin B12 while they are doing it. It is the responsibility of the person making an assertion to provide evidence to back it up. My searches on the web did not turn up any evidence that this is so; rather the contrary, that it is notso, because if miso does in fact contain B12, why don’t the vegetarians mention it? I would think that they would trumpet it to the skies, as a non-animal source of B12. Which brings me to my next point…
You are saying that protista (which may or may not be a source of B12) are animals? If they are not plants, then they must be animals? Is that what you’re saying? I thought the whole point of making the category of Protista was to make an entirely new category of things that were neither plants nor animals.
You seem to be saying here that you think Vegans don’t realize that Protista are animals, and so they are hypocrites because they claim to eat no animals but are actually eating animals in the form of spirulina and bacteria.
Is that your point?
So, to sum up: It seems you are saying:
[list=1][li]No plant is a source of B12.[/li][li]Protista is a source of B12 (which by the way has not yet been demonstrated during the course of this discussion).[/li][li]Protista is not a plant.[/li][li]Protista is an animal (a statement with which I would have to disagree).[/li][li]Therefore, vegetarians who claim to eat only plants but who eat spirulina and bacteria are hypocrites because they are eating something that is not a plant, i.e. Protista.[/list=1][/li]
Is that your point?
P.S. Can we please not get sidetracked into “Evils of the Modern Factory Farming System”? The OP is concerning the possible hypocrisy of vegetarians. Thanks. 