647, welcome to the Vegan thread! :)The debate topic is neither of the above. The topic at hand is, “Are vegetarians hypocrites?” Evidently some participants feel that vegetarians consume animal products in the form of spirulina algae, bacteria, various insects and mites on their vegetables, etc., and so can be termed “hypocrites”. As you can see, if you read the complete thread, we are evidently still trying to define our terms.
Come on down! 
Lions kill antelope, and the antelope die horrible, painful deaths. Sometimes the lions don’t kill enough antelope, and they starve, another painful death. That’s nature, and I don’t feel bad about it, even though I’m a vegetarian.
You see, a lion has no conscience. We humans do. And mine leads me to not eat meat. But I still feed my dog meat, and I don’t stop my cats from killing birds, and I don’t think that makes me a hypocrite; if my carnivorous pets developed consciences that told them it’s wrong to eat meat, I’m sure they’d find a way to let me know.
Your Quadell
Danielinthewolvesden wrote:
Bacteria are most assuredly not members of Protista. All Protista are eukaryotes (i.e. their cells have nuclei, mitochondria, an endoplasmic reticulum, and maybe plastids). All animals and all plants (and all fungi) are also eukaryotes.
Bacteria are considered members of either Archaea or Eubacteria, depending on what kind of bacteria you’re talking about. They are prokaryotes, not eukaryotes. They have no cell nucleus, no mitochondria, no endoplasmic reticulum, and no plastids.
Nothemama said:
Holy Zarquon! Is that really what this is boiling down to? You’ve got to be kidding me. Vegetarians are hypocrites because they eat bacteria and algae?
If that’s really what this discussion is about, it is absolutely assinine. A vagetarian can appropriately be termed a hypocrite if that person knowingly and intentionally consumes an animal or part thereof. If I deliberately sliced off a small hunk of my skin and mixed it in the meatloaf I served you, and you ate it without knowing what I had done, would I have the right to call you a cannibal? After all, you (unkowingly and unintentionally) ate human flesh…
Please. The argument that vegetarians eat “animals” because “that’s what bacteria are” is childish semantics. And the argument that a person eats animals because she unknowingly consumes an insect hidden in a piece of fruit is as ludicrous as the claim that all humans are coprophagic cannibals because they inadvertently eat dead skin cells and rodent dung.
Mmmmmm, rodent dung.
you know all this arguing makes me hungry…
As a vegetarian once-removed (I eat only animals that are vegetarians), I can assure you we are not hypocrites.
::
**Nurlman,**I am with you absolutely 100% on this. I walked into this discussion last week, when it was already up to 2 pages long, by which time Otto and Daniel~ had been mixing it up so hot that Otto had to go take a walk to cool off, and he hasn’t been back. I can’t say that I blame him.
The OP was already kind of off the wall, but it seemed like it degenerated almost immediately into a slanging match. I thought, if there was somebody out there who truly thought that vegans were hypocrites, that it might be interesting to debate the point. It seemed like Daniel was that person, but it has taken me this far just to figure out exactly what’s his talking point is.
And I agree, now that we’ve gotten some of the wrinkles ironed out of it, it seems, well, not very logical. Sorry, Daniel. 
The original poster hasn’t been back to defend his thread. David or Gaudere, what’s the procedure when people decide not to continue with a thread? It’s fine with me if we close this one; IMHO, I think it’s all talked out.
(Unless Otto wants to come back and talk about the label on his little bottle…?
NOTTHE… Protista are neither plants nor animals, they are protista. Bacteria & blue-green algae are not animals either, nor have I ever said they were. Read the post prior to responding. If you read my post on pg 2 of this mess, I quote “the Essential Guide…” and the quote includes “…or fermented foods…”), which is what bacteria do to soy & thus we get B12. Bacteria & yeast are what ferment things.
Tracer, yeah, like I said, some sources divide the simplistic “super-kingdom” protista down further, (putting bacteria off for eg). It does not really matter. The point was that there is no PLANT source of B12. Yes, perhaps I am being simplistic by just calling all the NON-PLANT/NON-ANIMAL living things "protista’, but I am in good company.
NO, NURLMAN, @ no time have I said that by eating bacteria or blue-green algae (non-plant/non-animal “protista” are vegans hypocrites. I have said that by eating mites & not shrimp, they are. Mites & (other small insects), & small worms are all true animals. Mites are even in the same Phylum as shrimp. It is possible, just very difficult to avoid eating them. So if the Vegans eat animals, but they excercise a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy, then they are NOT hypocrites? Mother’s milk is OK, but cow milk isn’t, (no matter how lovingly the cow is being treated)? Killing plants is OK, and protista, AND animals that are too small for one to bother about, but for god’s sake don’t eat that piece of cheese or that steak, for if you do you are morally bankrupt= hypocrites!
Hun, you are trying my patience. What are you trying to prove? What do you want? Do you want all vegans to start eating seafood, steak and cheese because they unwillingly, often unknowingly, eat little kritters? What is the logic here? What is bugging you so much? No one is forcing you to not eat anything. No one on this thread. If you have a problem with some individual vegan out there in the Real World, go out and pester them, and just leave this thread alone. You are convincing no one and are looking a little absurd to most of us.
You eat rat feces and cockroach parts in a lot of processed foods. Since you eat rat shit, and aren’t going to great lengths to avoid eating it, that must mean that you willingly eat it, right? So why don’t you chow down on a big cow pattie too? A big steaming pile of dog poo? Why not? You’ve already consumed the rat shit. Same with the cockroaches - hell, you know that you’ve consumed them at some point. So why not go out to the garden and eat some garden snails? Hey, other cultures eat snails, why not you? And hey, other cultures eat puppies, why not you? What’s stopping you? If you express some distate or moral outrage at the concept of eating puppies or shit, you must be a hypocrite. You rat-poo eater you.
Is it revulsion, a personal aesthetic that prevents you from eating dog shit, or garden snails, or puppies? Or a personal code of what is and is not acceptable? Hey, that sounds like what a vegan has decided to do - to restrict, to the best of their ability, to not eat certain things, for their own personal reasons, to follow their own personal code. The nerve of them.
You are annoying, and need to get a clue, kid.
Polydactyl Cats Unlimited
“A Cat Cannot Have Too Many Toes”
OK, just to be on the prudent side, I will retract that. Apologies. I know I didn’t use the “f” word, or anything too rash, but I probably shouldn’t have added that last line.
But, I will admit, my patience is being pushed here.
Yosemite: retraction accepted. See my reply in the PIT.
Nurlman said:
Which is what I should have written in my lengthy post on Daniel’s thread in the PIT. But I had to ramble a bit. It’s really pointless.
Anyway, it looks like this thread is being “moved” (if only for a few posts) over to the Pit thread. What a mess!
Daniel, whatever. You’re right, about everthing. Vegetarians are all scum. They are all NOT better than you, you are wonderful, and perfect, and all vegetarians are hypocritical jerks. There. There. There. Happy now? {/sarcasm}
I strongly suspect that was the crux of all of this. Some people think that if someone else is adopting some “strange” (as defined by whoever) discipline, that they automatically are doing it because they “think they are better than everyone else.” Oh, it just couldn’t be because the individual decided that they wanted to take on this discipline for personal reasons, it MUST be because they are “holier than thou”. Oh, sure, it must be that. Isn’t that why anyone ever does anything that requires discipline? So they can feel superior to everyone else? Sure!
Polydactyl Cats Unlimited
“A Cat Cannot Have Too Many Toes”
A few random comments:
On placenta eating: I know a woman who ate at least one of the placentas when her children were born. I don’t know whether it was cooked or raw, and I don’t know her well enough to ask her. The family is slightly the hippy-dippy type, and say they are vegetarians.
On self-definition: My husband and I tell people we are semi-vegetarians; we seldom cook meat at home (too messy, veggies/grains are healthier), and often choose vegetarian meals in restaurants (but we do eat steak about twice a year). Not easy, considering we live in an area where many people think it’s not a meal if it doesn’t involve a big slab of bloody flesh.
An anecdote: I’ve heard from several sources that Billy Joel and his drummer, Liberty DeVitto, were once backstage after a Paul McCartney concert trying to find some meat to eat in McCartney’s all-vegetarian catered spread. Paul came along and Billy and Liberty asked him if there was any meat. Paul said, “Come on, guys, you know I never eat anything with a face.” To which Liberty said, “Poor Linda . . .”
So is it okay for a vegetarian to eat a carnivorous plant, such as a Venus flytrap?