I do thank you for your disingenuous response. I had forgotten that contradicting you is about as productive as wrestling a greased python and I guess I needed the reminder.
I think it was some dude named Chesterton who said “My country right or wrong is the equivalent of My mother, drunk or sober”, or something to that effect. That’s how I feel about it: althoughI have little power, I would bring my ailing country in a better direction if I could, feeling a connection and a sense of responsibility there. Definitely not blind loyalty or any inclination to take my country’s “side” against others when that “side” has been defined by our stupid political leaders or portions of our rockheaded culture.
If you mean it in the sense of “America love it or leave it” the answer is no; I would be perfectly happy to leave it.
If you mean in the sense of willing to see/take part in revolution (I would prefer unarmed) to see improvements then the answer is more of a yes.
But mostly I’m just old, accepting of the current status quo, and willing to accept small improvements as they happen. Or don’t.
My problem with this is, I really have no idea what America’s ideals are. I mean, we can all trot out a list of feel-good ideals, but does our country really act in pursuit of them? Has it over past eras?
Most recently, with Obama’s 8 years, sandwiched between the post 9/11 Patriot Act/Iraq-Afghan war debacles and Trump, I find it difficult to even see a continuing upward trend. Hard to see what issues we are terribly forward thinking about - and isn’t that something you would show if you were acting in pursuit of “ideals”?
I consider myself patriotic because of America’s “potential,” and MUCH of what it has attained. Also, I appreciate the overall pretty excellent life it has afforded me and mine. And I love and respect it’s natural beauty. But I also think it is patriotic to point out glaring shortcomings as well.
A very good point. We can’t look to individual administrations or individual government officials as being the models for our “ideals”. Many people think that our country’s ideals are whatever *their *ideals are–that’s why you got this “take back our country” crap when the Democrats were in power. Many people think individual freedom at the expense of the well-being of society at large is the American ideal, at least that’s what it looks like to a lot of other countries. The only way you can really get at this is to look at our founding documents and constitution for a persistent expression of what we think we should be.
Yeah, I agree. But also find that approach problematic. Sure, the founders were visionary, and did A LOT that was amazing. But they also set up a system favoring white, wealthy property owning men.
I feel you also need to look at how those founding principles have been applied throughout the past 230 years. There HAS been a gradual trend towards a more inclusive democracy and increased tolerance - but by no means has that trend has been universal, uninterrupted, or as rapid as it might have been. Further, our country has been VERY happy to involve itself in other countries’ domestic politics, and has been happy to ally itself with civil rights monsters when strategic interests would be furthered.
I really do try NOT to be overly cynical, but the most apparent US “ideals” I perceive concern the support of business interests, the acquisition of cheap, disposable consumer goods, an unwillingness to sacrifice present comfort in support of longterm goals, and the like.
I wonder whether it ever crosses the minds of patriots that they have almost certainly been brainwashed. You grow up in that system and only hear the same rhetoric from others who support the system. It’s easy to succumb.
Alexander Hamilton wasn’t a patriot.
The trick here is defining what, exactly, constitutes “patriotism”.
Some people believe that, if you don’t blindly and enthusiastically support everything your country does no matter what the result, you are not a “patriot”. In other words, it’s used as a powerful tool to keep people in line and discourage them from speaking out against injustice.
Not much of that was in any way correct. Even so, what workable alternative do you have to offer?
Nice belief you’ve got there. Got anything to back it up beyond “Because I say so!”?
Capers add a nice touch to lox and bagels.
So…you’ve got nothing beyond handwaving. At the very least would you mind giving us your definition of “Patriotism”, so that we can see where the goalposts are?
“Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.”
-Sam Clemens
“A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon.”
-Napoleon Bonaparte
“Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism.”
-George Washington
“We, the People, recognize that we have responsibilities as well as rights; that our destinies are bound together; that a freedom which only asks what’s in it for me, a freedom without a commitment to others, a freedom without love or charity or duty or patriotism, is unworthy of our founding ideals, and those who died in their defense.”
-Barack Obama
“A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.”
-Edward Abbey
“Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.”
-Samuel Johnson
When I see a person holding a flag I think that person is looking for an enemy.
When I hear a person talk about patriotism I think that person is looking to divide based on geography.
When I see a person do these things while smack dab in the middle of the United States of America while surrounded by countless other Americans I start to wonder why are you doing this and who the hell are you directing your patriotism toward? Are you gearing up for a fight? If you’re not going to fight then why are you going through all of these motions?
IMO flag loving, patriotic Americans act very similar to North Koreans when it comes to displays of national pride.
Rather than continue a hijack, thought I’d link to [url=http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=841043
a similar thread concerning “shared national values” I started a couple of years ago. No real consensus was reached then, so I have no reason to expect any now.
I like being Canadian and living in Canada, but we don’t use the term “patriotic” much to describe our own citizens here.
Same. I mostly just think how lucky I am that, a long time ago, some people moved to Canada and, by pure luck, I was one of their descendants.
I guess you don’t like lox.
How do you separate “Nationalism” from “Patriotism”?
That’s how I feel, except I was born and live in the USA.