Arming teachers

[HurricaneDitka]

@Czarcasm

Out of all that, that’s the part you want to argue about?

It was low-hanging fruit. I was going to point out that most people on my side think Kellermann’s study was badly flawed too, but I didn’t want to still Bone’s thunder

[Leo_Krupe]

@HurricaneDitka

It was low-hanging fruit. I was going to point out that most people on my side think Kellermann’s study was badly flawed too, but I didn’t want to still Bone’s thunder

Why was it low hanging fruit? Does that make it wrong?

Even if it was flawed, about which I don’t know, but I’m willing to be enlightened, perhaps this is what is needed:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/02/18/whats-missing-from-the-gun-debate-217022

The exact causes of America’s rise in mass shootings—and the best ways to prevent such violence—remain uncertain all these years after Columbine.

Should we focus our efforts on mental health? Would a ban on semi-automatic rifles necessarily solve the problem? What if the surest bet is for schools to install metal detectors in their halls?

To those of us in the public health community, the path forward is clear: To solve this nationwide crisis of firearm injuries and deaths, we must pursue the same kind of scientific research that showed us how to save millions of lives from cancer, heart disease and high blood pressure.

The same type of scientific research that helped us save half a million lives from road traffic crashes, without banning cars. The same kind of scientific research that proved that second-hand smoke harms people.

(Paragraph breaks entered to make it easier to read and comprehend.)

[Bone]

@Bryan_Ekers

Sure. Let’s see if the U.S. can go a month without a mass-shooting and then things will be calm enough to study the impact of guns in the home.

I look forward to discussing the issue in 2031.

What I was mostly referring to was the amount of firearm related threads in GD at the moment. By my count, I see 7 other threads in the top 14 listed. But hey, what the hell right, what’s one more. I started it here. My 16th total thread started in GD.

[Clothahump]

@Leo_Krupe

Cite 1
Cite 2
Cite 3

Thank you.

[Clothahump]

@nelliebly

I’ve been away from this thread for a few days–found out I have cancer–but I’ve read all the comments since I last posted. I have over 25 years’ experience in a high school classroom. My old district is seriously considering arming teachers. I’ve given this a lot of thought–my classroom was the first one inside the main entrance–and have talked to school cops, including one who’s a sniper. I’m not anti-gun. If carrying a gun would save students, I’d have done so in a heartbeat. But anyone who thinks arming teachers would be an effective means of stopping school shooters has been watching too many movies.

Hollywood version: Shooter enters classroom, pauses for a second to look menacing, raises his AR 15, and starts shooting. The teacher, Liam Neeson, pulls his Glock from its concealed holster in his waistband and calmly fires, killing shooter immediately.

Reality: Let’s say I’ve met the requirements my district has for voluntarily armed teachers: a CCW permit, psych testing (but just to determine how I do under stress), and 20 hours’ training, total. I’m teaching sophomores.

“So the Declaration of Indepen–” BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM (etc.)

…snip…

Almost all the teachers in my district are hunters and gun owners. The overwhelming majority refuse to be armed in a classroom. We’d do anything to save kids, but this just won’t work.

Arming the teachers, or placing armed ex-military on campuses, is only part of the solution. In your scenario, how did the shooter get to your classroom? If the school has a single point of entry, that makes it highly unlikely that someone bursts into your room like you described.

[senoy]

I think all teachers should be armed. It helps them write on blackboards.

Seriously though, I know many, many teachers. Nice people, I don’t want them to have a gun shoved in their desk drawer. Is gun control (or violence in general) the only issue where we say, “The solution to <a problem caused by something> is more <of that thing.>” No one says, “The solution to obesity is to eat more.” or “The solution to teen pregnancies is to get more teens to have sex.” I think there’s a short circuit in the human brain regarding violence and how to deal with it.

[k9bfriender]

@Clothahump

Arming the teachers, or placing armed ex-military on campuses, is only part of the solution. In your scenario, how did the shooter get to your classroom? If the school has a single point of entry, that makes it highly unlikely that someone bursts into your room like you described.

Are you suggesting just having one door, or locking the other doors?

Every school I have been to has only had the one entrance unlocked. Other entrances are locked unless it is being actively monitored by a teacher or staff. (Or cop, in the case of when they open the side door to the gym on election day.)

How he got his rifle into the school is a good question, but as I have seen posters here admonish that even if you see someone entering a school with a gun, you shouldn’t call the police, as they may just be getting ready to go hunting.

The Uber driver as well, that dropped him off at the school (how much must it have sucked to be that guy), would have been admonished to call the police because he’s being asked to drop off a guy carrying a soft rifle bag (not really mistakable for much else) in front of a school.

There was nothing that this guy did that the pro-gun advocates here on this board would have considered something to be reasonably suspicious of until the very moment when he started killing people.

[k9bfriender]

@senoy

I think all teachers should be armed. It helps them write on blackboards.

Seriously though, I know many, many teachers. Nice people, I don’t want them to have a gun shoved in their desk drawer. Is gun control (or violence in general) the only issue where we say, “The solution to <a problem caused by something> is more <of that thing.>” No one says, “The solution to obesity is to eat more.” or “The solution to teen pregnancies is to get more teens to have sex.” I think there’s a short circuit in the human brain regarding violence and how to deal with it.

The solution to a problem being more of the problem is something that only makes sense to an addict.

[Lamoral]

@HurricaneDitka

19-year-old “children”? :rolleyes:

Yeah, it’s not like I find myself agreeing with Ditka much but what’s up with that? You’re an adult at 18, full stop. (Yeah, you still can’t buy alcohol, but the law doesn’t say you have to be an adult to buy alcohol, it says you have to be 21. Anyway, that’s another debate.)

nelliebly, sorry to hear you have cancer. That sucks. I’m wishing you all the best.

[msmith537]

@obbn

Allowing teachers and admin illustrators to be armed is one of the few things we can do that could actually make a difference. I’m not suggesting that we arm EVERY teacher. Let those who want to be armed do so after the necessary background checks And pepper training.

My wife is a teacher, she is also a CCW holder. Instead of allowing her to have the ability to defends herself and her students the administration wants her thoto gets her students into a closet and hope they aren’t discovered. If they’re found, they’re nothing but fish in a barrel.

I feel that people opposed to this idea grade business of teacher actively running towards a shooter and getting into a gun fight. I don’t see it implemented that way. Go ahead and hide, but if a teacher is armed and a shooter mashes their way into their room they have a fighting chance.

There is no guarantee that a with a firearm can stop a shooter, but they certainly have a better chance than trying to defend themselves with words.

The idea here is not to replace the police, but to give the teachers tone to our up a defense unhook the police arrive. Remember when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

To those who keep saying, but but there’s gingt to be students accidentally getting shot all the time, are you serious? We had Mullins if concealed carriers in the country and the streets are not filled with blood because of it.

The time has come to realize that there is so little that can be done to prevent an attack by someone willing to carry one out. The best we can do is be prepared and give our teachers the tools they need to defend themselves and their students.

Lets look at this logically:
There are around 99,000 public schools in the US (another 30,000 private).
There are approximately 50 million students attending public schools.
Here are some stats on school shooting deaths from 2011 to 2018 (so far)
Year Deaths Major Events
2011 5
2012 42 Sandy Hook Elementary
2013 6
2014 5
2015 21 Umpqua Community College
2016 10
2017 19 Rancho Tehama Elementary School
2018 20 Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School
TOTAL 128

What does this tell us? That while newsworthy and certainly horrific, your chances of being killed in any particular school shooting are small. Around 1 in 3 million.
So introducing firearms into 99,000 schools:
How many accidents can we expect?
How many stolen firearms?
What sort of tactical training will the teachers receive (beyond shooting paper targets on a range)?
How much training will they receive in appropriate situational use of firearms?
What sort of rules of engagements will they have (i.e. can a 100lb English teacher draw her gun to break up a fight between two 200 lb football players)?
What happen if they accidently shoot an innocent student or teacher defending their classroom?
What happens if a teacher’s weapon is used in a shooting?

Now I concede that even though school shootings, let alone mass shootings are relatively rare, in the grand scheme of things, their impact on the nation’s psyche may justify a response that goes beyond what the actual numbers might suggest. However, in preventing a relatively small number of incidents by introducing more guns to relatively untrained individuals on a scale as large as the US public and private schools system has the potential to do far more harm than good.

[nelliebly]

In my school, all the entrances are locked except the main entrance. That doesn’t mean students don’t occasionally block another entrance open so a buddy can get in if he’s running late and has to get to a class close to that door. And all told, there are 16 entrances to the school. A couple of years ago, the school locked the inside doors to the foyer of the main entrance. You have to press a button to gain entrance. Who presses the button to let you in? An overworked, distracted secretary. If she can, she peers over the counter around her desk to see if you look menacing.

But suppose you didn’t. Suppose you look like a kid who’s late and has to get to Band class. She lets you in. You have guns in your guitar case, as the NIU shooter did. Oops.

Clothahump, you must have missed that my classroom is the first inside the main entrance. It makes it extremely likely that would be the first stop for a shooter. The school resource officer agreed. Teachers on the second floor or across the building may have better luck, but that doesn’t help my students.

But let’s say shots are fired in my classroom. Wouldn’t that mean another armed teacher would come up from behind and shoot the shooter? Um, mabye, but first, the other teacher would have to know where the shots were coming from. Second, the shooter would need to stand still with his back to the door–unlikely, I understand, since that leaves him vulnerable. Furthermore, the doors, which are supposed to be locked, are on magnets. If the office hears the shots and hits the “Violent Intruder” button, the classroom doors shut. It’d nearly impossible to hit the shooter through the very narrow window on my door.

Jacquernagy, thank you for the kind thoughts. I have a fighting chance, and I’m feisty.

[Ann_Hedonia]

@k9bfriender

Are you suggesting just having one door, or locking the other doors?

Every school I have been to has only had the one entrance unlocked. Other entrances are locked unless it is being actively monitored by a teacher or staff. (Or cop, in the case of when they open the side door to the gym on election day.)
.

Every school I attended had multiple doors that were locked so they could not be opened from the outside. But they opened from the inside. And every student knew that they could be opened from the inside to allow someone to come in from outside.

But locking the doors from the inside - or designing schools so they only have one door - would be highly dangerous. Because protection from psychopaths with automatic weapons is not the only consideration. Fire is another. A school needs fire exits.

Besides if you only have the one door and the shooter gets in anyway, the situation is now much worse. Because there’s only one way out and the students are trapped.

[k9bfriender]

@Ann_Hedonia

Every school I attended had multiple doors that were locked so they could not be opened from the outside. But they opened from the inside. And every student knew that they could be opened from the inside to allow someone to come in from outside.

But locking the doors from the inside - or designing schools so they only have one door - would be highly dangerous. Because protection from psychopaths with automatic weapons is not the only consideration. Fire is another. A school needs fire exits.

Besides if you only have the one door and the shooter gets in anyway, the situation is now much worse. Because there’s only one way out and the students are trapped.

Well yeah, doors need to open from the inside. I remember a movie some years back where the principle was trying to fix the school he was assigned to. He ordered the doors chained shut to keep drug dealers from entering and selling their product in the halls of the school, but was excoriated for putting the kids in danger for having blocked their means of escape.

But, we can put alarms and cameras, seeing both the inside and outside of the door, so that at least, if someone opens the door, the office is alerted.

Now, when I actually went to school, the doors were only ever locked at night, when the building was closed.

I also see in grocery stores doors that say (paraphrase) “These doors are alarmed. Push for 10 seconds to get out.”

[storyteller0910]

To those who are proponents of arming teachers:

How will you handle the (not insubstantial) number of teachers who not only do not themselves wish to be armed, but who do not want to work in an environment where weapons are permitted and are willing to leave the profession entirely if your suggestion is enacted? My wife is a teacher, in one of the best districts in my state. Because she is a teacher, I have a chance to chat with an awful lot of other teachers about these issues. Anecdotal, I know, but I can tell you with absolute confidence that roughly half of the teachers at my wife’s school (my wife included!) would simply stop teaching if guns were permitted on school grounds. Period, full stop. What is to be done with that? Instantly you have a massive shortage of teachers, and the selection criteria for the profession stops being about who is skilled enough to perform the job and starts being about who is willing to perform the job around armed colleagues. I posit that this would have a very significant negative effect on the quality of education.

If you favor arming teachers:

1. Do you disagree that any meaningful number of teachers will refuse to work in an environment where guns are permitted?
2. If you concede that enough teachers will quit to matter, how will you continue to provide quality education? Will you absorb the increase in your property taxes to pay teachers enough to make the perceived risk worth it?

[nelliebly]

@k9bfriender

Now, when I actually went to school, the doors were only ever locked at night, when the building was closed. But, we can put alarms and cameras, seeing both the inside and outside of the door, so that at least, if someone opens the door, the office is alerted.

I also see in grocery stores doors that say (paraphrase) “These doors are alarmed. Push for 10 seconds to get out.”

Most schools have security cameras at entrances, as well as around the school. (Mine has 64.) But alerting the office every time a door is opened? People exit schools all the time, and with multiple entrances (16, I think, in mine), even a staff member who did nothing but monitor the alarms wouldn’t be able to keep up. You also have people outside who try the door anyway, even if there’s a sign saying it’s locked.

[Falchion]

@k9bfriender

I do think it’ll make a difference. There will be a much larger number of firearm incidents in schools as the teacher loses control of the weapon, makes mistakes with the weapon, or uses the weapon inappropriately.

I raised this question earlier in the thread (I think) and I don’t think it was addressed. People are very quick to make predictions like this (and quite certain about them). But they tend to just be assertions. But, presumably, we can actually test your prediction. A number of jurisdictions have allowed teachers (and others) to carry concealed weapons in schools going back, at least, 5 years. According to this article, as of 2013, 18 states allowed armed teachers, with varying restrictions. (I’m not certain, but I think that the Guns-Free School Zones Act would not apply to those states where you get permission from the school board/officials.).

Have there been a larger number of firearm incidents in schools as a result?

@storyteller0910

If you favor arming teachers:

1. Do you disagree that any meaningful number of teachers will refuse to work in an environment where guns are permitted?
2. If you concede that enough teachers will quit to matter, how will you continue to provide quality education? Will you absorb the increase in your property taxes to pay teachers enough to make the perceived risk worth it?

Same question to you. Teachers have been (legally) carrying firearms in schools for years. Has there been a significant drop in the number of teachers in those districts? A corresponding need to increase teacher salaries?

[k9bfriender]

@Falchion

I raised this question earlier in the thread (I think) and I don’t think it was addressed. People are very quick to make predictions like this (and quite certain about them). But they tend to just be assertions. But, presumably, we can actually test your prediction. A number of jurisdictions have allowed teachers (and others) to carry concealed weapons in schools going back, at least, 5 years. According to this article, as of 2013, 18 states allowed armed teachers, with varying restrictions. (I’m not certain, but I think that the Guns-Free School Zones Act would not apply to those states where you get permission from the school board/officials.).

Have there been a larger number of firearm incidents in schools as a result?

They have been allowed to, but it’s been up to the district in most cases, and that I am aware of, very, very few teachers have taken up this option.

This changes if it is something that is encouraged, or even required. I did the math upthread (or at least, I think in this thread), and at 18 school shootings a month, if you just have one gun in a school, then the average gun has 450 years to sit around and not get into trouble before it gets used. And it’s not just sitting in a safe somewhere, it is on the teacher (or in their purse). And that’s just for one gun per school.

Lets look at cops. Do cops ever lose control of their weapon? I have some cites that say they do. https://nypost.com/2017/09/13/bonehead-cop-suspended-after-gun-police-gear-stolen-from-car/
http://www.fox19.com/story/3104465/tri-state-cop-loses-gun
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-breaking/2017/11/20/prescott-police-chiefs-gun-missing-after-he-left-library-bathroom/882646001/
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/01/27/orange_county_cop_loses_semiautomatic_assault_rifle_left_on_squad_car_s.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/gun-magazine-ammunition-lost-1.4480733

That’s just a few links from the first page of a google search.

If cops can’t keep track of their weapon, how do we expect teachers to?

[k9bfriender]

@nelliebly

Most schools have security cameras at entrances, as well as around the school. (Mine has 64.) But alerting the office every time a door is opened? People exit schools all the time, and with multiple entrances (16, I think, in mine), even a staff member who did nothing but monitor the alarms wouldn’t be able to keep up. You also have people outside who try the door anyway, even if there’s a sign saying it’s locked.

People shouldn’t be leaving the school all the time. They should be in class. If they are leaving, they can go out through the front doors, or out the monitored side doors during dismissal or school sponsored outdoor activities.

If it’s the middle of a period, and a door sensor goes off, yeah, someone should be looking at that, to see who is ditching school, sneaking out to smoke, letting in a drug dealer, or in the rare case, who is coming in to cause violence.

[Falchion]

@k9bfriender

They have been allowed to, but it’s been up to the district in most cases, and that I am aware of, very, very few teachers have taken up this option.

I can’t easily tell how many teachers/school staff are armed (and I think it would be in the interest of the school not to release that information). But you can go back to 2012 to find articles about hundreds of Utah teachers taking classes for in-school carrying. An article in 2014 suggests that as many as 80 Texas school districts established armed staff programs (under state law). This article claims that 23,000 schools have “armed security on staff” (but I can’t tell if that included assigned police officer types or something else. This article talks about designating teachers and administrators as “security officers” to allow them to be armed).

So, I don’t know how many armed teachers there are. But I don’t know that I can conclude that it is “very very few.” Still, I would think that if there was likely to be the type of increase in firearms related incidents that has been predicted here we would see some evidence of that. All I can find is a teacher who accidentally shot a toilet.

This changes if it is something that is encouraged, or even required. I did the math upthread (or at least, I think in this thread), and at 18 school shootings a month, if you just have one gun in a school, then the average gun has 450 years to sit around and not get into trouble before it gets used. And it’s not just sitting in a safe somewhere, it is on the teacher (or in their purse). And that’s just for one gun per school.

If the point is that school shooting of the type that armed teachers have the potential to stop (i.e., active shooters, not one-off murders or suicides) are sufficiently rare that even a slight increase in more mundane risks (teachers shooting toilets) isn’t worth it, I’m not sure I disagree with you. It might not be worth it.

What I’m curious about is whether there is any actual evidence for the increased risks that people in the thread declare, given that we surely have some data. The claims make sense to me (my fourth grade teacher was a former Marine, but other than that I’d trust very few of my teachers with firearms). But given that its been tried, I wonder what the actual data shows.

[k9bfriender]

@Falchion

I can’t easily tell how many teachers/school staff are armed (and I think it would be in the interest of the school not to release that information). But you can go back to 2012 to find articles about hundreds of Utah teachers taking classes for in-school carrying. An article in 2014 suggests that as many as 80 Texas school districts established armed staff programs (under state law). This article claims that 23,000 schools have “armed security on staff” (but I can’t tell if that included assigned police officer types or something else. This article talks about designating teachers and administrators as “security officers” to allow them to be armed).

The “armed security on staff” is certainly something other than teachers. Cops or security guards, but armed security has as its primary function security, not education.

You talk about hundreds in a state that took a class, and one state with 80 out of 1247 school districts.

There are nearly 100,000 schools in the US, with three and a half million teachers in 13,506 districts.

You are talking about increasing the number of guns in schools be an order of magnitude or more.

So, I don’t know how many armed teachers there are. But I don’t know that I can conclude that it is “very very few.” Still, I would think that if there was likely to be the type of increase in firearms related incidents that has been predicted here we would see some evidence of that. All I can find is a teacher who accidentally shot a toilet.

With a very small percentage armed, with that percentage being the more responsible and knowledgeable gun owners, you can already see one incident that was not only reported, but made national deadlines. Not all gun incidents get reported, much less make national news.
If the number of armed teachers goes up by 100+x, do you think that incidents will increase or decrease?

If the point is that school shooting of the type that armed teachers have the potential to stop (i.e., active shooters, not one-off murders or suicides) are sufficiently rare that even a slight increase in more mundane risks (teachers shooting toilets) isn’t worth it, I’m not sure I disagree with you. It might not be worth it.

That is my point, and that while there are methods that can and should be employed to limit the availability of guns towards disturbed individuals who would carry something like this out, I think that putting guns into classrooms has far more room for mischief and accident than for utility.

What I’m curious about is whether there is any actual evidence for the increased risks that people in the thread declare, given that we surely have some data. The claims make sense to me (my fourth grade teacher was a former Marine, but other than that I’d trust very few of my teachers with firearms). But given that its been tried, I wonder what the actual data shows.

The trend is too recent, and with too few teachers to have useful data, but looking at the rate of police officers having been reported in making mistakes with their weapons, including mistakes they have made while in schools, we can extrapolate, and to be honest, it doesn’t look all that rosy.