Arming teachers

Some of the people exiting a high school building during class time:

kids going home sick
kids going to the dentist/orthodontist
kids getting needed materials they left in their cars
kids who are job-shadowing
kids whose parents are picking them up for funerals, family trips, etc.
kids loading up band instruments or sports equipment for a competition/game
UPS/FedEx/mail carriers who’ve delivered packages to office
parents who just dropped off kids’ lunches, inhalers, forgotten homework
parents who met with principal/counselor
teachers who have dental or doctor appointments they couldn’t make for after school
secretaries who have to get supplies, food, etc.
school nurses and resource officers, who often have more than one building to cover
principal leaving for district meeting
etc., etc., etc.

They come IN the main entrance, but some leave by a different entrance because it’s closer to their car, or the classroom, guidance office, band room, etc. Spend an hour in a high school and see for yourself. The door sensor would be going off a lot, and for legit reasons.

Should certainly be leaving by the main entrance.

Shouldn’t be doing so in the middle of class

Should be going through the main office.

This is after dismissal, and is easily monitored by a teacher.

Should absolutely be going through the office, not wandering around the school.

All those should be leaving through the main entrance.

I spent 4 years in high school, actually. You are right, that if people are allowed to wander about and exit through any door they please, then there would be more traffic than easily monitored. You simply tell them not to do that, and that they need to go through the main entrance except in emergencies, or for school sponsored reasons (recess, practice stuff like that).

Add to your list, you have kids sneaking out of school to cut class, to smoke cigarettes or weed behind the gym, to have sex behind the gym, or to vandalize the principal’s car, and you have even more reason to have as a policy that side doors are not to be used except in emergencies or when authorized.

The door sensors should not be going off, and anytime they do, all it takes is a glance to see, “Oh, that’s Timmy, trying to go sneak a smoke, I’ll send the resource officer out there,” Or, “Oh that’s Mr. Henderson, he just got a call about a family emergency, and is leaving through the nearest exit,” Or, “Oh, that’s Mrs. Hauk’s class, going out on recess.” or, “Holy shit, that guy’s got a gun, and is trying to get in, I should call the police and put the school on lockdown!”

Frankly, I was not aware this was the case. I will have to read about it some more before I have a useful opinion. Thanks!

In all seriousness, a great response to new info. If only we all could manage this more.

In Canada, teachers want nothing to do with giving asthma puffers or emergency EpiPens. They’re going to want to carry a gun? This is going to increase school safety?

The usual excuses are trotted out after every disaster. Although Americans are obviously fond of guns, other countries with lots of firearms manage to have more sensible limits. Craven politicians who parrot the NRA clearly care more for the freedom of gun owners than the safety of the citizenry, especially young people.

I don’t think this conversation is intended for a Canadian audience.

Body armor isnt hard to get at all. Not anymore…

Having had experience in both working in a school as an officer and law enforcement in general…one issue already mentioned is the size of the schools. Here in GA like a lot of places we have massive huge high schools. 3 thousand kids… multiple structures… multiple asst principals etc. I can’t imagine how many officers you would need to fully secure it… but the elephant in the room to me is this… Upper middle class parents are what you need for a successful school situation. You can have your poorer kids… etc… but you need the middle to upper class to buy into your public school. As i’ve argued with my police/military buddies… have some dude walking around fullyarmed like its a mall in Tel Aviv and you’ll see a flood of kids to privates…

LOL. My guess is the whole world is shaking its head in disbelief. 5 years ago this would all be outlandish satire.

It wouldn’t have surprised me to hear Donald Trump beaking off about arming teachers five years ago, many people do. And I would imagine the rest of the world is applauding these kids putting the screws to the NRA and its cheerleaders and its factotums.

This thread is a reaction to a tragedy and the usual excuses which follow. Canada, France and Norway are all gun-loving countries. The US has about three times as many guns per capita, but I know many people who are enthusiastic owners. The difference in the frequency of these tragedies is still striking.

My guess is US teachers want as little as possible to do with actions which increase their legal liability. I’ll bet they hate being responsible for the medications of their students.

Working in an ER, I have received a moderate number of threats. One time, someone flashed a gun. I talked the guy down. If I had a gun, I might have done something regrettable.

I’m not really looking for a debate – I expect most of you, like me, are pretty much burned out on conflict at this point.
But I have to say my piece, and I believe the SDMB is the best place to reach a lot of reasonable people.

In response to the spate of unspeakable school shootings America has endured, culminating in the horrific murders in Florida last week, some people are advocating having teachers trained in the use of firearms, who would then carry concealed weapons on their person at all times on school campuses. I see several rational problems with this approach.

From what I understand of what happened in Florida, each teacher in their individual classroom was focused on locking the door, figuring out the safest place for everyone to try and take shelter, and keeping the kids as calm and safe as they could.

I doubt for many of them there was much time, if any, to do all this and then somehow get back out of the classroom and go looking for an armed murderer who is familiar with the school grounds, and could be anywhere.

Think about it: Your roomful of students have huddled behind a desk or in a corner, praying that they have chosen a spot in which line of sight, prescience or maybe just dumb luck will grant them some kind of protection from a shooter bent on slaughter. You have dashed over to the door, in fear of your life, and locked it. The one thing keeping the killer from just plain walking in and shooting everybody is that locked door.

Are you then going to open it up again to go out and find the shooter, on the narrow chance that he isn’t two feet away when you do so? Even if he’s ten or twenty feet away down the hall, he will see or hear you first; and seeing as he has assault weapons, that means that in all likelihood you are dead and the door stands open and unlocked.

Maybe you think you can ask one of your students to lock the door behind you. One of the heroic students in Florida was shot five times doing just that; he lies now in the hospital, critically injured. Knowing that, which student will you ask to lock the door for you? Who do you pick? Would you want to make that decision? Any kid a little less tough or lucky than Anthony Borges would simply be dead, and again, the door would be open and unlocked with the killer right there.

Anyone who has ever seen a horror movie knows that you never unlock the door.

Say your murderous student has not yet been expelled, as the Florida shooter was, and instead sits day after day in your classroom, watching you, paying careful attention to where you carry your gun and when your hands will be occupied long enough for him to grab the gun and shoot you. Will these teachers be trained in karate too?

Furthermore, I would like to remind you that the kind of people who become teachers are, not infrequently, the kind of people who may in fact be uncomfortable with shooting and killing another human being. I’m not trying to imply anything about either the courage of teachers or the character of gun enthusiasts – I’m just saying that teachers spend their days doing their best to understand and get through to kids; to empathize with them, to teach them to rise above hate and violence. They are trying to teach ideals. To expect these same people to go from zero to sixty on a moment’s notice, to go from humanitarian to enforcer in a heartbeat… well, I expect it, with sincere regret, from police officers. I expect it from government agents. I suppose I might expect it from James Bond.

It’s the last thing I would expect, or even want to expect, from a schoolteacher. God knows they have enough on their plate already.
Though I would never expect James Bond to know the difference between a gerund and a prepositional phrase.

I think in the right-wing fantasies, a brave teacher locks the students in the classroom as she creeps out to take out the shooter.

And the thing is, it will happen: given enough mass shootings, eventually they’ll be one cut short by a concealed carry teacher.

And to some proportion of people, it won’t matter whether the number of mass shootings actually went down (it won’t), or how many of the guns teachers brought into schools accidentally or deliberately resulted in the deaths of innocent people. If you can cherry-pick one event that fits your narrative, that’s enough.

I don’t think most people would advocate that teachers should “go looking” for the intruder. I suspect the plan for many would be to sit tight, gun drawn in case shooter breaks down / shoots through door.

I doubt you’ve got much insider knowledge about right-wing fantasies.

But you have insider knowledge about me, HurricaneDitka?

Anyway, I sometimes suffer through FOX news / crowder / shapiro and so I see that the fantasy is common / popular in some parts of conservative media.
But I will say, that of course with this issue partisanship won’t help, so I take back the “right wing” thing.

Absolutely right. Only an idiot would advocate a teacher or coach going after the gunman.

In order to prevent school shootings you would have to give teachers clairvoyance, not guns. Even a teacher trained with firearms can’t react before the first (or second etc.) kid gets killed.

Also, I know it’s a waste of time pointing this out, as his supporters don’t care, but it completely contradicts what Trump said during the election:

And even a teacher “trained” in firearms, like must people including CCW cowboys, is probably going to be a shitty shot.

Shooting a pistol is hard, and most people don’t practice enough to actually be proficient.