Then I guess I don’t get why you’re in here vehemently defending the soldiers that did this, unless you think their cause was right.
Maybe I’m missing something, although honestly, though it seems against my nature, I prefer discussing it than sniping about it. I’ve learned most of what I’ve learned about the war from these boards.
I’ve been on every side of the fence regarding the war, and now it just looks like a tiresome event of killing and torture with no end in sight.
You’ve got a good point, however the Australians for example are in the same war yet take a different approach:
Aussie soldiers living in ‘Baghdad shag palace’
I bet that they’d have taken some shit if they’d blown away that American. Fortunately, the Aussies used good judgement. It’s not clear that the Americans did in either incident.
No, what I’m saying is if your Dad was in Iraq during all this, I would hope that he wouldn’t:
I didn’t realize we were supposed to be hailing them as heroes for this act. Regardless, it seems to me like people are not treating this as “americans cherry picking 3 suspicious iraqis,” but rather as “americans cherry picking random iraqi civilians, walking in the street.” I would think people could see the difference, but it looks like I’m wrong.
LilShieste
I agree that, had the Australian soldiers killed the american, people would have definitely been all up in arms about it. Seriously, though, I wouldn’t have been. In fact, I think that the american soldier should be grateful, because he is lucky he didn’t get blown away.
LilShieste
Bolding mine. Words Bush’s.
Yup. You sure freed the shit outta those three. How many to go now?
If the war was still technically ongoing (can you resume a war declared over and won?), and if the soldiers shouldn’t have been there saving the Iraqis, I actually wouldn’t have had a problem with the shooting - it seems legit. I’m with **World Eater ** and LilShieste on this one. Kinda.
There’s plenty of other, good reasons to be outraged coming from Iraq these days.
Who said anything about hailing them as heros? It was simply a crew doing their job as directed by their commanding officer, as they have been trained to do.
As long as terrorist are lobbing mortar rounds & RPG’s into camps, you’ll have helicopter crews ready to neutralize any suspicious activity.
well, my point in bringing up my dad was that there are many things it could have been besides a mortar.
Telescope, a rolled up MAP, anything. Instead we just said “Yeehaw, smoke 'em”.
What’s it going to take for this to end? That’s my big question. ONE side has to stand up and say “we’re leaving this shindig…I’m tired of fucking killing”.
Look, I’m the first to say that the recent filmed/documented behaviors of some American troops over there are despicable. They undermine our supposed reasons for being there. They make the U.S. look like fucks.
Yet, it’s completely expected, and entirely no surprise to me at least. In fact, I was wondering when it would all start making the headlines.
You’ve got a bunch of 18-25 year-old guys (and the occasional woman) over there that are still waiting to grow up. They’re thrust into a lethal situation that tsunamis them with everything they’ve never known, and yet, goes right along with their diet of American pop culture of Rambo, blood sport, and the thrill of the kill.
WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU EXPECT?
As the most media-covered war event in human history, just get ready for more of this. War is the most despicable thing the human race involves itself in, and we never learn the lessons that might prevent us from doing it again and again. Throw in young, undisciplined people, put them under unimagineable stress and fear, and despite the military’s best efforts at training, you’ll always get this result. It’s been true of every war.
But, it’s easy for a few SDMB folks to sit back in their little chairs, typing away wildly with authority at their keyboards, cushy and clever and insightful in the knowledge of what’s real, right, and wrong, and all the while, not having to pick up a rifle or a grenade and fly to a foreign country where people are trying to split your gut wide open with bullets and mortar.
Have another latte, and enjoy how your slippers feel. You know who you are.
We can’t condone what we’re seeing over there, and I won’t even try to justify our involvement, but I sure as hell won’t act like I’d know what I would do if I were in their situation, especially from the comfort of my safe home.
So yeah, let’s listen, watch, and talk about it, but go fuck yourself with an ax handle if you think you can get on a high-horse and pontificate and condemn authoritatively on this problem from the comfort of your f u c k i n g desk. All we can really do is observe, be horrified, and watch the inevitablility of human nature take its course. Anything past that is just smug indulgence and naive chatter.
In my defense, my desk and chair are extremely uncomfortable.
That’s what I pad five bucks for, mister.
Good one, though. Deep.
well, gosh - I sure feel put down. I suggest to you, though, that there are in fact quite a few folks who actually do have some life experiences which may give them some insight about how they ‘might’ react. In addition, of course, it is not actually necessary to experience every single aspect of some one’s existence in order to justify an opinion on what is ‘unacceptable human behavior’.
what the fuck did I expect? I expected them to act honorably. Sorry that you seem to feel that was an unreasonable expectation.
No shit, I think I’d have shot him under those circumstances, and felt completely justified.
Gee, ya think?
Tiresome?***
Did you think that war was a neat and tidy thing, with a clearly-defined beginning, middle, and end? What gave you THAT idea? I suppose it was your total lack of understanding of, or participation in, the ugly realities of war?
Or was it just the fact that you never had to concern yourself with these unpleasantries, because they happened somewhere else, to someone else, while you were concerned about things like jobs, the checking account, dinner plans, dieting, and Brian Urlacher’s package?
Cozy up to the idea that war drags on, that people interminably just kill and die, and that killing and torture and horror are only the beginning of what it’s all about. Let your sensibilities be slammed. In the process, wise up. After all, you’re new to all of this.
I said “some”. Sorry to burst your indignation bubble.
The fact that he might still have a working trigger finger and the will to use it.
You do NOT leave live, armed enemies behind. And you do NOT hop out of the helo and stroll over, making small talk with highly suspicious men who might be armed well enough to kill you, take or destroy your helo, and proceed to kill your fellow soldiers.
As far as any reasonable exercise of common sense goes, those men were armed with a weapon which is capable of killing large numbers of people in a small area like a military base. The men in the Apache could not take the chance that three suspicious men in a warzone in the dead of night dropping off a large tube-shaped object near an American base were only disposing of their gift-wrap tubes.
They were patrolling to protect the base, and that’s exactly what they did. Any soldier would have done the same thing.
To think otherwise merely means you’re ignorant, and to insist otherwise in the face of the facts means you’re an idiot.
Stupid thing to do, it’s not the most accurate weapon in the world.
Even more stupid. He could have played “eye in the sky” like police helicopters, and directed ground forces to the location.
No arguement there, not a fair fight. But that is combat for you.
Nope. I didn’t hear the gunner saying anything like “Thats for Bobby, you scum sucking dog!”
that’s it, booka? Sure, there are folks who are have no basic concept of the ugliness of war. I recall trying to point it out, myself, when folks were talking about a couple weeks of fighting, followed by cheering masses of Iraqis, a bit of rebuidling to the sounds of kumbaya around the campfire.
however - bottom line, the abuse of the prisoners was indefensible. Yes, even if they were scared 19 year olds (though if you have proof that they were, by and large 19 year olds, love to see it). and, of course, even more indefensible for those who were supervising them (or had the responsability of doing so). What I fear most, however, is that the lesson learned here won’t be “don’t torture and degrade prisoners because that’s wrong”, but “no cameras allowed”.
Ya. That’s it. It’s as basic as it gets.
There is no lesson to be learned. This isn’t a controlled classroom. Lunacy and horror are running the show, and no amount of effort will stop war atrocities and bad behavior. It’s like asking a fine sports car to track a straight line in a hurricane.
Cameras or no cameras, most Americans just don’t get the concept of war, and never will. Which is generally fine, I suppose, until they try to place it a familiar context, and then start mouthing off like they know what they’re talking about.
Methinks you forgot to add that they are “terrorists” because they are fighting the invaders that butchered countless innocents/family members in their own country.
Americans. Living in Bush’s world, where black is white and up is down…
Hey asshole, I would expect you to understand that I wasn’t referring to MY sense of ‘tiredness’, but to the thousands upon thousands of soldiers who have been told that ‘god damn it there IS a point to this’ and there FUCKING ISN’T.
War doesn’t HAVE to drag on. A smart administration would say “holy cow this is going to hell in a handbasket, let’s get an exit strategy…TOOT FUCKING SWEET.”
And I’m not not new to the atrocities of the world. Surprisingly some of us can see violence and hatred and anger and selfishness for decades and still not “cozy up to it”. YMMV.
And you know what, as much as this war fucking disgusts me I’m still going to worry about my checking account. Running around wailing and gnashing my teeth isn’t going to stop anything any sooner. All I can do is place my ballot in the box in November.
As for Brian Urlacher, it’s BASEBALL SEASON YOU FUCK. KERRY WOOD IS MY BOYFRIEND NOW.
Good on you, jarbaby. It’s great to see that you’re not all brainwashed. Though it appears to be getting mighty close…