As it stands, I object to some of the ways fellow athiest try to provoke others.

Your general strategy here seems to be shaping up as trying to claim that I never responded to challenges that I’m pretty sure I did respond to, along with throwing in implications that I am “extremely silly”, “clueless”, and “ingenuous”. Whatever. In your latest post I’ve found one new and one previously overlooked challenge and am happy to respond here. If I’ve failed to answer something else, feel free to point it out.

Really? So you claim that Dawkins is your style of supposed weak atheist, who doesn’t deny the existence of God and is simply open-minded in an admirably neutral manner? I happen to love his writing which I think is both intelligent and often beautiful in its celebration of science and enlightened philosophy, but your claim about his view of God is ridiculous and just simply wrong. Let’s have a look.

You might ask yourself how someone who doesn’t advocate what I have called “strong atheism” and deny the existence of God could have written a book called The God Delusion! The title alone should end the discussion right there, but by all means let’s explore it further. Chapter 4 is entitled “Why There Almost Certainly is No God”, and let us here very clearly understand that his use of the adverb “almost” is meant in a strict scientific sense that is almost sarcastic, with the implication that all real knowledge is necessarily probabilistic but in this case we sure as hell know where the probabilities lie. He wastes no time in clearly explaining this right at the beginning:

*The argument from improbability is the big one … My name for the statistical demonstration that God almost certainly does not exist is the Ultimate Boeing 747 Gambit. The name comes from Fred Hoyle’s amusing image of the Boeing 747 and the scrapyard … Hoyle said that the probability of life originating on earth is no greater than the chance that a hurricane, sweeping through a scrapyard, would have the luck to assemble a Boeing 747.

… It turns out to be the God Hypothesis that tries to get something from nothing. God tries to get his free lunch and be it too. However statistically improbable the entity you seek to explain by invoking a designer, the designer himself has got to be at least as improbable. God is the Ultimate Boeing 747.*

The same chapter goes on to dismiss those who claim to have had personal subjective experiences of God (“I have dealt with illusion and hallucination in Chapter 3”) and to mock the idea that God can send messages to millions of people and hear from all of them simultaneously (“such bandwidth!”).

The chapter ends with a summary of its six main points and the conclusion that, if Dawkins’ arguments are accepted, then “the factual premise of religion – the God Hypothesis – is untenable.”

And this isn’t the only book in which Dawkins makes such arguments. Dawkins, like Krauss and other crusading hardline atheists, has widely publicized his views in numerous books, lectures, and interviews. Dawkins has indeed acknowledged a “fanatical” desire to promulgate his ideas. I will say again that Dawkins is both brilliant and eloquent and I actually agree with and even admire much of what he says. But anyone who claims that he doesn’t explicitly deny the existence of God, and that his views are some kind of neutral ambivalence, has either never read anything he’s written or is just engaging in absurd knee-jerk defensiveness.

Suffice it to say that I could make all the same statements about Krauss, too, who you also defend as merely an open-minded skeptic. In fact he’s worse, because he also claims supremacy of the hard sciences – physics in particular – over all domains of philosophy, which is stunningly myopic.

(emphasis mine)
The bolded statement is categorically wrong.

The core difference between atheism and agnosticism is that atheists assert an opinion on the existence of god, varying between weak atheism (“I don’t know whether God exists”) and the kind of strong atheism that is the more widely proselytized (“God does not, or almost certainly does not, exist”) along with assorted strawman arguments and occasional gratuitous mockery, as we have seen.

Whereas agnosticism asserts a position on the epistemology of the whole argument, that the existence of God is not knowable, and certainly not amenable to resolution by scientific evidence.

Indeed I think the major problem with many of Dawkins’ otherwise enlightened and eloquent arguments – and those of Krauss, though Krauss has a few more problems – and the only real argument I have with him – is the same problem that I have with most avowed atheists, which is that he sets up the concept of God as a strawman that he defines in a limited context like creationism or simple-minded principles of causation, and then knocks down the strawman.

I referred to myself as “more or less an agnostic” because I don’t much care for labels, but if you had to pin a label on me, that would probably be it, as I have defined it. I also see value in religions as social institutions and instruments of social tradition and continuity.

It’s always struck me that this version of agnosticism is too assertive: it’s making a very definite statement about the universe on an a priori basis. It goes beyond, “I don’t know if there is a God” to “If God exists, his nature is such that he can never be known.” I’ve never quite known how they get there. Why not, “If God exists, his nature isn’t clear just yet, but might be clarified later.” God might arrive in a burst of glory any day now. The formal agnostic seems to declare this to be an impossibility. “No, God will not make his presence known by direct revelation to the world.” Why not? Why make those kinds of rules for what God can/can’t and will/won’t do?

It might help to note that I’ve never met this variety of agnostic. Are there really such people? I’ve met people all along the spectrum from belief to disbelief, and a great many who say they don’t know. Of the faithful, I’ve met people holding a very wide variety of specific articles of faith. (The Devil is a real person; the Devil is just an abstraction; Literal seven-day creation; Genesis is a metaphor; God is perfect love; God hates sin; and so on.)

I even know one guy who is furious at God…for not existing! He holds it to be some kind of personal betrayal!

I pointed them out already. Go back and read my posts. It’s not my job to re-post everything the person I’m debating failed to respond to. I pointed out that you did it to two entire posts and I numbered them for you. Why ask me to do it again? Do you not see a bunch of questions in the very last post of mine that you just responded to that you have ignored?

Sigh. Go back and read my posts. What I claim is in black and white; no need to question me. It’s not my claims we’re discussing; it’s your claims. These are the claims you were asked to back up:

  • Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.

It is that narrow sense that is relevant when one talks about atheist activism, which is precisely what I was talking about in #135, citing people like Lawrence Krauss or Richard Dawkins, atheist organizations, and atheist advocacy ads.*

and

*And there are many individuals – I named a few – who explicitly and rather vehemently deny the existence of any god or gods, and they do so – and have written books about it – under the label “atheist”. *

No, I don’t.

No, the title (that he didn’t even choose) doesn’t back up your claims a bit.

Okay. :rolleyes:

What the hell is the strict scientific sense of the word “almost”? The title not only does not back up your claim, it shows that he has said the opposite of what you claimed! Again, you are helping out your opposition!

Okay? I’m assuming you know the difference between improbability and impossibility, so…?

In the very same book, Dawkins has a scale of probability for the existence of God ranging from 1 to 7, where 1 is 100% certainty in the existence of God and 7 is 100% certainty in the non existence of God. He labels himself a 6. The following is what he calls a 6:

6.00: Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist. ‘I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.’]

But you’re not going to retract your statements, are you?

Instead of claiming that I’m being knee-jerk defensive, how about backing up your claims instead of providing cites that show the opposite of what you intended?

You already did that. You just failed to even trying to back that up as you were already asked.

Why are you having such a tough time with this? No, atheists don’t necessarily assert an opinion on the existence of god and weak atheism is not “I don’t know whether God exists.” Weak atheism is not a statement on knowledge. Even theists can say they don’t know whether God exists, but have belief that he does. Weak atheism is “I have no belief in the existence of any gods” without taking it a step further and explicitly denying the existence of gods. I can’t believe you don’t get this by now.

I neither know nor care what one guy who isn’t even American feels about atheists. The Dalai Lama isn’t the one causing problems here.

x-ray vision: your entire post, long as it is, consists of nothing but “No, you’re wrong” assertions, without one single concrete piece of evidence or even a definite statement.

What, exactly is your affirmative point?

You’re wrong.

“Just Do…Whatever Your Conscience Dictates”

What is it that I need evidence for? Do I need to post evidence that the poster I addressed got the definition of weak atheism wrong? Was the definition I provided not a “definite statement”? Did I not post evidence that Dawkins’ views on the strength of his atheism isn’t what another poster claimed? What would you have liked in that post that I didn’t provide?

Thank you for the confirmation of my condemnation. It usually isn’t that easy.

To be serious for a moment…I’d like to know what you are arguing for. I’d like to know your actual opinion.

A guy says, “XYZ.”

You say, “No, that’s not right at all.”

Okay…but what do you think is right? What’s your view of the matter? Where do you stand? An entire post of “No, you’re wrong” doesn’t tell us anything. It is only a part of a useful debate.

At this point, I don’t even know if I agree with you or not!

Maybe next time you can condemn me in the pit, report me, put me on ignore, or simply be more specific of what I’m not providing for you. Scratch that last one; I’m not here to post to your satisfaction.

Hmm. I just posted exactly how I didn’t do that and asked you specific questions that you didn’t answer. Take your complaints about my posting somewhere else.

I’m attempting to engage you in debate, by asking for clarification. I’m also criticizing your shortcomings. Those are all perfectly valid in this forum. I’m not insulting you, only pointing out that you are failing to uphold your end of the debate.

Nothing you have done it pit-worthy. I’d just like you to do a better job of putting forward a viewpoint and debating it. That’s what this thread is for. If you refuse, then I have the right to note this and call attention to it.

You are playing a pointless game here; what, please, is your opinion regarding the real topic of this thread? How can I debate you if you won’t take an actual position?

What if someone recognizes that possibility of a creator of some kind, but concludes that there’s no reason to believe any human-made descriptions thereof, i.e. there might be a god, but theism is definitely crap?

Anyone has the right to ask any other poster a question.

No poster is obligated to respond.

A poster whose question is ignored has the right to point out that his or her question was ignored. The other poster has the right to either claim that the answer was provided or state that no answer will be forthcoming.

Once it is clear that the two posters are never going to agree even to discuss a point, further posts on the topic of failing to respond or failing to ask the correct question are useless.

If one or both posters want to shake the dust from their sandals and continue their separate ways, as long as no insults are hurled, that is fine. Continued engagement over whether the answer was given or correctly asked following that breaking point serves no purpose except to irritate the Mods.

[ /Moderating ]

NO, but I remember CHristians saying that no one ever left the church because they found something more believable. That was when I was balanced on the edge and is part of what tipped me over away from the church.

They could try calling themselves an Ignostic of some type?

CMC fnord!

‘recognizing the possibility’ does not a ‘believer’ make - it can be simply recognizing that we don’t/can’t know everything.

Theism is the most basic of beliefs - just belief in god(s) - its non-specific to start with.

Deism gets a little more specific - belief in ‘a’ god - but still non-specific overall (kick started things, left and never looked back) - specifically rejects ‘revealed’ religion.

Christianity/Muslim/Jewish/etc - are all starting to get to specific god(s).

Yeah. It was on Hester Prynne’s tombstone.

I disagree with the idea that agnosticism makes any a priori assumptions about the universe. I see it as the exact opposite – it allows for an open-ended multiverse whose boundaries, if any, will always be beyond science. The true agnostic position on the unknowable nature of God is really just based on the view that any sort of entity that we have direct knowledge of is an entity that can be scientifically observed, measured, and must obey the laws of physics, and such an entity is no longer “God”. But if it’s observable but doesn’t meet the latter criteria of reality, then it’s “magic”, and one is inclined to disbelieve in magic.

So we’re left with a useful definition of “God” – the one I use – as comprising those phenomena that are intrinsically beyond the reach of science. One might think it’s as much semantics as epistemology, but I believe that science really does have intrinsic limitations, and that places us in a position of inherently limited knowledge of first causes. One might think of these God-like phenomena as causative factors behind the observable universe, but not connected through any observable reality. If science discovers new dimensions, another universe, or an eternal Euclidian spacetime, then these become part of our reality and the first causes move further out of reach. I think it’s ultimately far more realistic to believe that there will always be wonders we can’t know about than to state, without evidence and with incredible hubris, that science can completely define all reality.

I do, and Richard Dawkins does. You don’t. There are very few things that science describes as absolutely certain or absolutely impossible. That the sun will rise tomorrow is only a probability, though a damn good one. I think I know how to interpret the theistic position of a scientist who describes at length his belief that the existence of God is about as likely as a hurricane spontaneously assembling a junkyard into a fully functional new Boeing 747. Apparently you don’t, or else it’s hard to see what your point is.

The overall comparison I made is correct, but yes, the first part I put in quotes was sloppily worded as I was only trying to distinguish between weak and strong atheism and both with agnosticism. Replace “I don’t know whether God exists” with “I have no belief in the existence of God” and the distinction I’m making is perfectly correct, along with the distinction between all forms of atheism and true agnosticism. It’s amusing that you’re focusing on this nit considering your own truly major and basic bloopers of consistently denying that there is a common type of atheism that explicitly asserts that there is no God – even to the point that you mire yourself in a ridiculous argument about the meaning of the word “disbelief”, which we’ll get to in a moment.

The distinction between weak and strong atheism is something that I brought up earlier, based on the definitions provided by the National Federation of Atheist, Humanist and Secular Student Societies (AHS), and which confirms similar distinctions made by other authorities. It’s not just me you’re aguing with, it’s also the Oxford Dictionary (“a person who disbelieves OR lacks belief in the existence of God”), Wikipedia (“In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities”), and the AHS, (which distinguishes between "weak atheism, defined as ‘to fail to believe there is a God’, from strong atheism, defined as ‘to believe there is no God’ ").

In contrast let’s look at some of the nonsense you posted before:

  • An atheist is one that has no belief in the existence of any gods which is the same as the “or” part that says “lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.” *(#177)
  • If one’s not a theist, he’s an atheist, as you just said. There’s nothing ambiguous about that and it doesn’t include “a wide spectrum of interpretable meaning.” *(#255)
    Your first statement conveniently ignores the first part before the “OR”, defining atheism as “disbelief” in God, which is not at all the same as “lacking belief”, a distinction also confirmed by precisely the wide spectrum of interpretable meaning that I just finished quoting. The “OR” means it might be the first definition (“disbelieves”), or it might be the second (“lacks belief”), or maybe something in between, and the two are certainly not the same. For whatever reason, you repeatedly and completely ignore plain statements from Wikipedia and the AHS on the different types of atheism, you ignore the major part of the Oxford definition, as if ignoring it will make it go away, and you even hilariously try to distort a plain dictionary definition…

Quoted by you, in rebuttal to my statement that "Whether you acknowledge it or not, there is a big difference between the two Oxford definitions ‘disbelieves’ and the alternative ‘lacks belief in’ apparently in some incomprehensible delusion that it supports your complete and utter failure of an argument that I am, to use your word, “wrong”. I think most of us understand what it means to “not believe”, and no, it’s not some noncommittal doubtful ambivalence as you tried to imply in #177 in your soft-pedaling of just one side of atheism. To “not believe” is a specific and consequential position. Here, let me use it in a sentence for you:

“If the jury does not believe your story, you will be hanged.”

Get it now? :rolleyes:

What you cite there is not “my claim”, it’s a direct quote from the Wikipedia article on atheism, and you can find identical statements in many authoritative sites on the subject.

I did that. I’m sorry, but you’re the one that seems to be having comprehension problems.

Lawrence Krauss has argued extensively that science has rendered both religion and philosophy obsolete. People like him place science on a pedestal as the answer to all questions about reality and the human condition. That’s an exceedingly myopic view and is what I refer to as “science worship”. But since you’re still arguing about what the phrase “to not believe” means, a discussion about philosophy at his point is probably moot.

I know that about science. We’re talking about you backing up your claim that Dawkins’ position is that “there are no deities”, not how science describes anything. My point is clear. I’ll make it again: You made statements about Dawkins and Krauss. You haven’t backed them up. Here are your statements again:

*Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.

It is that narrow sense that is relevant when one talks about atheist activism, which is precisely what I was talking about in #135, citing people like Lawrence Krauss or Richard Dawkins, atheist organizations, and atheist advocacy ads.*

and

*And there are many individuals – I named a few – who explicitly and rather vehemently deny the existence of any god or gods, and they do so – and have written books about it – under the label “atheist”. *

You haven’t even attempted to back that up with a cite about Krauss, but it doesn’t really matter since you think the title of a book counts as a cite.

He doesn’t do that. He talks about Fred Hoyle claiming that complex organisms are so improbable, that believing it is due to evolution is like believing that a hurricane can blow through a scrapyard and by luck a Boeing 747 can be assembled.

He finishes with this:

Darwinian natural selection is the only known solution to the otherwise unanswerable riddle of where the information comes from. It turns out to be the God Hypothesis that tries to get something for nothing. God tries to have his free lunch and be it too. However statistically improbable the entity you seek to explain by invoking a designer, the designer himself has got to be at least as improbable. God is the Ultimate Boeing 747.

He’s not saying what you think he is and this is in regards to a specific kind of god- “God.” It is not an example of “vehemently denying the existence of any god or gods.”

Show me where I denied that. I can specifically show you in this thread where I did say that there is strong atheism. I don’t agree that it’s all that common though.

I didn’t ignore it, and it is the same thing. The use of “lacking” there means “to be without.” If you “disbelieve”, you are without belief.

I’m not ignoring anything. That’s funny coming from you- I showed where you ignored entire posts! Since you brought up the AHS, I’ll post their definition below. Please tell me where I wrote anything to the contrary:

Atheism is an absence of belief in Gods. It is separate from anti-theism, which explicitly states that religion is in some way “bad”. Atheism is often criticised of being a religion, but it is as much a religion as baldness is a hairstyle. There are two main sorts: to believe there is no God, and to fail to believe there is a God, strong and weak atheism respectively.
http://ahsstudents.org.uk/about/what-is-atheismhumanismsecularism/

I have said the same things in this thread! If you “believe there is no God”, you have to “fail to believe there is a God.” That’s why atheism is best described as being without belief in the existence of any gods (which, again, is something you stated in this thread). It is the best definition for atheism because it is the one and only requirement. Compared to what you wrote:

Atheism is a belief system

Which is the statement of yours that started this, and you have still failed to back up and contradicts other statements of yours. When I point you towards some cites that explain how not having a belief in something does not a system make, you post the following:

You can throw around all the carefully contrived definitions you like…

Carefully contrived? Hardly. Yet you ignored my requests for you to back it up, or give me your definition of a belief system. How about telling us now? What in the links I provided do you think was incorrect in their explaining of why atheism isn’t a belief system?

I get that you are claiming one way that “not believe” is used by people to make some claim about atheism is the only way. If a jury does not believe a story, it doesn’t therefore mean that they think that the person that told the story lied. It often means they just haven’t been shown enough evidence to conclude that the story is necessarily true. We need more information to ascertain whether or not members of the jury thought the person was lying. But a jury is supposed to have evidence to hang, not disbelieve a story. Again, from your preferred dictionary:

disbelief:
Inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real:

You said this yourself:

This dichotomy is explained by the simple fact that the term “atheist” is inherently ambiguous. It means, literally, “not a theist”. That has a wide spectrum of interpretable meaning

Not a theist. That’s it; you got it right there. There’s no wide spectrum of interpretable meaning. Sure, it doesn’t tell you if one’s a weak atheist, a strong atheist, a Buddhist that believes in reincarnation or a liberal- but that’s okay. Everyone that has no belief in the existence of any gods is an atheist, regardless of what else they don’t or do believe. But your very own statement above contradicts that it’s a belief system.

Nice try. While I did quote that part, it was obvious I was quoting you in full but it was regarding what you said about Lawrence Krauss and Richard Dawkins.

Yeah, it must be my comprehension problems. Care to help me out with them? Start by reminding me where you backed up your statements regarding Krauss. Thanks.

Is there a tool besides science that even comes close to answering questions about reality? I see no “worship” there. That’s the sort of thing creationists and fundies say to attempt to bring science down to the level of the blind faith that they have for their religions.