I just find it interesting that if you have already developed your answer to the question you asked in the first place, and describe any other answer as “look (ing) everywhere else but in the mirror when placing responsibility for own mismanagement and incompetence”, I wonder why you ask the question in the first place.
Respect can have strange faces. The Taliban for instance also professed to respect women deeply and described them as blossoms that should be protected and sheltered from the world and the lusting eyes of men. If that’s respect, I’d take contempt any day of the week.
Why do you think I have developed my own answer? I have no idea what Bib’s answer to this would be. And it interests me because should he hold, like you apparently, that the Arabs themselves are mostly blameless in the way they’re perceived and especially in the state of the Arab world, I’d be greatly interested in hearing how he came to such a conclusion.
The Taliban are NOT representative of real, moderate Muslim thought.
I believe you are thinking of the Druzes, an off-shoot of the Ismailis branch, that believe in the divinity of Abu 'Ali al-Mansur al-Hakim.
Thanks for this thread; it’s been interesting so far. I’m hoping that it’s not in the process of being derailed.
Your analogy switches from religion to culture. In the 50s, would you have said that Christianity supported segregation, Jim Crow, and lynchings because the people who supported these would have identified themselves as Christian?
Having grown up a Baptist in Texas with Baptist relatives, I would say that while Christianity in general did not support segregation, Christianity as practiced by white southerners very categorically did. My mother remembers sermons being preached against black people.
Where did I say they were blameless? reread my post. I’ve read your opinions about islam on these boards and consider your question loaded.
I’m going to bow out as I think it’s an unfair hijack of Bib’s thread.
I’ve agonized over whether to post this as I’m worried it could sound offensive - that really isn’t my intention.
I’ve noticed a lot of Arab men are far more blatant when looking at women than western men are. While caucasian men will look, but will immediatly look away when you notice them doing it, Arab men seem unembarassed to be caught watching you, and will continue to do so even when it’s clear you’re aware they are doing so. I don’t think I dress in a particularly revealing way, FWIW. Do you think there’s a reason for this Bib, or am I imagining it?
Bibliovore, this thread is amazingly helpful, since it gives me a view of what it is like to be a modern Muslim as well as what it’s like being an Arab in the modern world. Once the thread goes away or dies down, where can I go for a routine glimpse into modern Middle Eastern events from an Arabic perspective? Are there any news outlets in the Middle East that you feel represent the voice of the more moderate Muslims (be they Arabs, Persians, etc.)?
Also, a slightly easier one: I’ve been warned, should I travel to the Middle East, that certain cultural perceptions there can result in me making embarrassing mistakes. These include the perceptions that:
- the left hand is dirty/unclean
- the soles of the feet are unspeakably filthy and contact with them is insulting
- a Muslim must take in any guest for three[sup]?[/sup] days if he is able
- if a guest admires something in your home, it is only polite to make a gift of it
- it is impolite for a man to ask another married man how his wife and daughters are; rather he should ask after the man’s “family” or “sons” or “children”
How widespread are these? And how seriously are they taken within (and outside) the Middle East?
If this is too personal just ignore it.
How heavy was societal and parental pressure for you to date/marry an Arab.
Have you dated non-muslims? Could you see yourself marrying one? Would your family be disappointed? completely pissed off?
Why, the Jews of course. Don’t you know they control the world’s media? 
I kid, I kid. The real answer is actually pretty complicated, because Islamophobia and Anti-arab racism are by no means recent phenomenons. Orientalists have been depicting us as cruel and godless barbarians for ages, and if you go back even further you have the Crusades.
The fact is that Arabs have always been regarded as “the other”. Saracens, Moors, Wogs, Sand Niggers, Dune Coons, Towelheads, call us what you will. The epithets have changed over the years, but the attitudes haven’t. Look at Hollywood movies like “True Lies”, “Delta Force”, and a host of others. The Evil Arab Terrorist has been a favourite movie bad guy for years.
Having said that, I don’t think we’re entirely blameless. We’re not doing ourselves any favours with some of these patriarchal regimes, or with grups like the Taliban who deny women the religiously mandated right to equal education. Yes, there is a lot of blatant racism out there, but I think it’s all too easy for us to fall into the role of the oppressed victim. Instead of wringing our hands and bemoaning the intolerable state of affairs, we could be doing more to educate people about Islam and confronting these stereotypes by fighting ignorance (the old SDMB credo!).
There are groups out there like CAIR - the Council for American Islamic Relations - who have done some incredible work in this field and continue to do so. More advocacy Groups like this are what’s needed.
As for Arab countries, I really don’t know. I don’t think you can blame the people for some of the crooks who are in power at the moment, because it’s not as if they actually voted these guys in. I know for a fact that there is wodespread dissatisfaction and anger at the current regimes, and many grass-roots movements to kick them out. However, i don’t know why we haven’t had more revolutions or coups to kick these guys out of power. Granted, brutal crackdowns on dissidents, secret police, and torture might have something to do with it, but I don’t know why some of these tyrants have lasted as long as they have.
I understand completely, and I don’t blame you for being cynical at all. The fact is that a lot of that stuff does happen. First off, let me make it clear that I’m talking about Arabs here, rather than Muslims. The reason I make the distinction is that not all Muslims are Arabs, and vice-versa. There are Muslims all over the world, of every race and nationality, and I don’t think you’re saying that all of them are mysoginists…
So, having made that distinction, yes, some Arabic countries are very patriarchal and definitely have a problem when it comes to the fair and equitable treatment of women. But these things happen despite the religion, not because of it. Honour killings, for example, have nothing to do with Islam, and everything to do with bullshit patriarchal notions of family honour. In short, I’d say it’s cultural rather than religious.
Of course some of these countries will oppress women and then point to a passage in the Quran and claim that it justifies their actions, but that’s bullshit, and people have been using the same ploy to justify all sorts of evil actions for millenia.
So the reason I’ve been raised to treat women with respect is because that’s what I was taught it says in the Quran. Every Manager I’ve ever worked for has been a woman, and I genuinely have no problem with that. I fully uphold a woman’s right to property, to education, to divorce, to respect and love and equality. I believe in all these things because that’s what’s right, and because that’s what it says in the Quran.
You don’t have to believe that I actually feel that way, that’s up to you, but I don’t blame you for being sceptical 
Just another quick post to say that I genuinely appreciate all the questions so far. I fully intend to answer each one, just as soon as I get home and grab a bite to eat. Catch you in a bit…
[quite=Evil Captor]when I hear a Muslim guy talk about how much he respects and honors women, I just don’t believe it.
[/quote]
You’re cherry-picking the worst regimes in the Muslim world to criticise. Don’t forget Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. where women have equal rights. Or are you muddling ‘Muslim’ up with ‘Arab’? In which case, take a look at Qatar, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain. Still patriarchal, but not as ghastly as you make out.
Honour killings are a cultural phenomenon, rather than religious. And they aren’t restricted to the Middle East. Alot of North African countries can report instances of such, and that they would occur in the christian communities also.
Evil Captor,
Cultural and religion shouldn’t be confused.
Just want to point out that a few hundred million muslims live outside the Arab world. For example, Indonesia with about 190 mil. muslims has a woman president (she may not survive the upcoming election though, but that’s another story).
I’m talking about the religion and how it’s practiced on the ground. Frex, Christianity has a blanket condemnation of killing in the Bible. “Thou shalt not kill” plain as day. But you see all sort of Christians and Christians leaders supporting killing in wartime and in the case of the death penalty. So I’d say that overall, Christianity supports killing in some instances, despite what the bible says.
Make that, overall Christians support killing in some instances.
Evil Captor, may I recommend a book? I used to feel the exact same way you do (honestly). Until I read this book and a few other articles.
Arab Women: Between Defiance and Restraint
It is a compilation of essays written by Muslim women, and edited by a Muslim women. These women are (all? mostly?) Western educated - they discuss everything from daily life to politics, and what, if anything, Americans can do about it. It is an easy, entertaining read.
Also, about the honor killings. Those are not as common and frequent as the Western media would like you to believe. And as others have said, it is cultural, not religious.